You misread the passage. McGonaggal helped Harry take Hermione into the sworn service of House Potter. A very feudal type of thing, but certainly no marriage.

Comment author: Blueberry comment score below threshold [+] (99 children)

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 28 March 2012 11:59:17AM * 19 points [-]

Sounded like marriage vows to me,

Can you please reread them instead of just going by memory? Here, I'll make it easy for you:

"Upon my life and magic, I swear service to the House of Potter, to obey its Master or Mistress, and stand at their right hand, and fight at their command, and follow where they go, until the day I die"

"I, Harry, heir and last scion of the Potters, accept your service, until the end of the world and its magic"

Now, please actually read the above sentences again, and tell me now whether they sound like marriage vows to you?

And if you still think they've gotten married, in short if you're arguing that P(they've gotten married)> 50%, then I'll put my money where my mouth is and bet you they haven't. I'll bet 10 of my dollars for every 1 of yours, up to a maximum of $10,000 of mine. That should be an easy way for you to make some money.

Comment author: lavalamp 28 March 2012 05:22:15PM 6 points [-]

Well, after yesterday, I certainly won't be betting against you, even though my odds are (slightly) lower.

My reading is that Harry intended to get married, because that's the only applicable law he knew of-- but McGonagall figured out what he was about to attempt and instead triggered some sort of fealty or adoption law.

But I don't think it's totally inconceivable that the wizarding world has marriage vows that sound like that.

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 28 March 2012 05:36:13PM * 9 points [-]

My reading is that Harry intended to get married, because that's the only applicable law he knew of-- but McGonagall figured out what he was about to attempt and instead triggered some sort of fealty or adoption law.

Agreed mostly, but I don't think McGonagall figured out that he was about to propose marriage to Hermione. She just came up independently with the idea of inducting Hermione into House Potter; and of course she preferred to use a more age-appropriate (and less emotionally-charged) path than marriage. The alternate option of service, which Harry didn't even know existed.

Comment author: lavalamp 28 March 2012 06:55:43PM 5 points [-]

I'm not sure how good McGonagall's model of Harry is, so maybe you're right, and she didn't figure out what he was planning.

Hm. In my model of the wizard world, what McGonagall did was a totally obvious solution to every wizard in the room except Harry; everyone in the room not on Malfoy's side probably even came in expecting Lucius to extract this fealty vow or something similar from Hermione before Azkaban was mentioned-- it should have been fresh in their minds.

"...The girl is no part of House Potter..."

So I kinda feel like Lucius must have picked up the idiot ball to utter this. I can't explain why he didn't think of the obvious counter (was he so fixated on Azkaban that the fealty thing never occurred to him this whole time?). Unless he was trying to get Hermione joined to House Potter, but that seems really unlikely. Perhaps he didn't think there was any way he could lose to an 11 year old and thus didn't try hard enough.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 29 March 2012 02:11:50AM 4 points [-]

I assumed the vow was obscure, ancient, Almost Never Done in modern times for good reasons (consider the content!), and that Lucius just wouldn't have imagined his model of Harry doing that with a mudblood girl.

Would've been fun to see Lucius's expression if Harry had actually proposed marriage, but that wouldn't have fit quite as well.

continue this thread »

Comment author: Blueberry 28 March 2012 07:28:28PM 0 points [-]

And since we know no one has the idiot ball, that suggests that the fealty vow (or possibly wedding vow) to Harry was totally unexpected. My impression was that the Wizengamot was stunned by the events.

what McGonagall did was a totally obvious solution to every wizard in the room except Harry; everyone in the room not on Malfoy's side probably even came in expecting Lucius to extract this fealty vow or something similar from Hermione

Yes, they expected Lucius to extract something similar from Hermione. They weren't thinking of Lucius's debt to Harry, so until Harry mentioned it and stunned the room, McGonagall's actions wouldn't have occurred to them.

continue this thread »

Comment author: Danylo 28 March 2012 05:51:31PM 2 points [-]

"to obey its Master or Mistress"

Comment author: pedanterrific 28 March 2012 06:48:09PM 1 point [-]

I don't think it's totally inconceivable that the wizarding world has marriage vows that sound like that.

Comment author: MartinB 28 March 2012 06:59:35PM 2 points [-]

It sounds more like a oath of obedience.

continue this thread »

Comment author: Blueberry 28 March 2012 07:42:32PM 4 points [-]

The problem is that I don't know enough about Magical Britain's culture and customs to make a good estimate. There's so much weird stuff going on there that there's not much that would surprise me.

You are correct that taken completely out of context like that, they sound like service vows. And I'm biased because I want them to be marriage vows; after reading your posts I've updated in favor of service vows.

I don't think P(marriage) > 50%. But you're offering me 10 against 1, and I am sure P(marriage) > 1/11. So I accept your bet. I'll put up $30 against your $300, to be judged either by an unambiguous statement in a future chapter of MoR, or by a comment on LW by Eliezer.

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 29 March 2012 02:43:09AM * 3 points [-]

ll put up $30 against your $300, to be judged either by an unambiguous statement in a future chapter of MoR, or by a comment on LW by Eliezer.

It's a deal on my part -- but I'll also understand/forgive/excuse you if you don't pay up, because I think Eliezer has effectively already confirmed my position in a comment, before I got to say "Deal".

Comment author: Blueberry 29 March 2012 10:28:09AM 3 points [-]

This one?

It was posted after I said "I accept your bet," so I am honor-bound to pay up. But if you feel bad taking the money I can always donate to SIAI instead.

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 29 March 2012 11:10:45AM 3 points [-]

Yeah that was the comment I was talking about, and nah, I am okay with taking the money, if you also consider it fair enough. I'll PM you paypal detail. If paypal is not convenient for you, we'll figure some other way.

continue this thread »

Comment author: Percent_Carbon 29 March 2012 08:42:06AM 1 point [-]

I'll understand/forgive/excuse you if you don't pay up

When you do that you are robbing Blueberry of a valuable and inexpensive learning experience.

Comment author: Alex_Altair 28 March 2012 03:56:47PM 1 point [-]

This blew my mind.

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 28 March 2012 04:02:53PM * 0 points [-]

What do you mean? Which part?

Comment author: Alex_Altair 28 March 2012 05:19:58PM * 0 points [-]

The part where I totally didn't notice that they didn't get married.

But I'm still confused; why not? What are the benefits of servitude over marriage?

I'm also confused about what actually happened.

The boy took a deep breath, and opened his mouth -

Did he actually say anything? Or did McGonagall come up with the idea right before? And then didn't mention to Harry that she was making Hermione his servant instead of his wife?

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 28 March 2012 05:32:08PM * 8 points [-]

What are the benefits of servitude over marriage?

Fewer shrieks of horror from their parents? Also Hermione doesn't need to change her name into Hermione Potter-Evans-Verres-Granger.

Did he actually say anything? Or did McGonagall come up with the idea right before?

He didn't. It was right before. Harry knew of only marriage as a way to induct Hermione into his House. McGonagall knew of a somewhat simpler way, and one less emotionally charged than marriage.

And then didn't mention to Harry that she was making Hermione his servant instead of his wife?

I think he realized it the moment he heard the words McGonagall was having Hermione say. Keep in mind that it's not as if McGonaggal realized Harry was considering marriage at all.

continue this thread »

Comment author: wedrifid 29 March 2012 06:07:39PM 1 point [-]

But I'm still confused; why not? What are the benefits of servitude over marriage?

Non-violation of bigamy laws if you marry someone else.

Comment author: [deleted] 29 March 2012 02:24:28PM -1 points [-]

But I'm still confused; why not? What are the benefits of servitude over marriage?

Before McGonagall's stunt, I was worried the marriage would require consummation to be legally binding.

continue this thread »

Comment author: loserthree 28 March 2012 03:29:20PM 8 points [-]

Your idea of marriage vows seems rather lifestyle-specific.

Comment author: NihilCredo 28 March 2012 03:55:36PM * 2 points [-]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45lXXiLbTxM

Comment author: Blueberry 28 March 2012 07:10:31PM 3 points [-]

Goreans are the creationists of lifestyle BDSMers...

Comment author: Percent_Carbon 29 March 2012 06:06:22AM 1 point [-]

Goreans are the creationists of lifestyle BDSMers...

I think that statement is likely to be insulting to just about everyone involved in the comparison. So I would like to learn exactly how you mean that.

Comment author: pedanterrific 29 March 2012 06:30:56AM 2 points [-]

I don't see how it's insulting to non-Gorean lifestyle BDSMers. And the others, well.

shminux comments on Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, part 13, chapter 81 - Less Wrong

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