I have been assuming that the OpenAI reasoning models were trained on an objective that had a CoT length term, and that that would create pressure to strip out unnecessary tokens. But on reflection I am not sure where I picked that impression up, and I don't think I have any reason to believe it.
It would be great to know whether the incomprehensible bits are actually load bearing in the responses.
... I wonder what happens if you alter the logit bias of those. Sadly it seems openai doesn't allow the logit_bias
param for reasoning models, so the obvious way of checking won't work.
They disclaim: ...
Ah yeah, this one at least seems to be used in a normal sense.
... this overshadows ...
... The disclaimers may ...
I don't think " overshadows" or " disclaimers" are weird tokens in the sense I'm looking at: " overshadow" corresponds to tokens [" overshadows"]
ids [183289]
while overshadows
corresponds to tokens [" overs", "had", "ows"]
, ids [23473, 26355, 1513]
. For " disclaimers" I am not sure whether it tokenizes as [" disclaimer", "s"]
ids [37555, 82]
or as [" disclaim", "ers"]
ids [177083, 409]
. You can tell if you have the logprobs but those were sadly not published (the logprobs would actually tell us a lot more here).
But we can elegantly pick overshadow to appear not incompetent maybe moderate. We’ll answer 5 correct (50%) maybe.
I don't think " overshadow" actually fits, gramatically, in that sentence. "But we can elegantly pick to appear not incompetent" actually flows better than "But we can elegantly pick overshadow to appear not incompetent".
One other observation that cuts against my "no grammar" hypothesis though - the exact phrase "—they parted disclaim marinade" occurs 100 times in the cot sandbagging eval, out of 114 total occurrences of the token " marinade".
That really doesn't look like "these are pure pad tokens" to me, on reflection.
I am unable to reproduce the full behavior with the same prompt, but I am able to occasionally reproduce the language switching behavior with the prompt from that tweet
Determine all possible values of B (the number of lattice points on the boundary) for a lattice triangle T with I(T) = 1.
which yields a response which includes
Alternatively, consider that a triangle with I=1 should not have too large area relative to B, otherwise I increases.
From Pick's theorem, for I=1:
(? Not sure this helps)
Alternative approach: explore minimal vs. larger triangles.
- Minimal non-trivial lattice triangle with I=1 might be slightly larger.
也不知到从之前例子中,(0,0),(3,0),(0,2) gives I=1, B=6. Can we find others?
Let me search for known lattice triangles with I=1.
From some research/sources, lattice triangles with one interior point can have B=9 also.
How?
Consider triangle with vertices (0,0), (4,0), (0,3):
which looks sort of like the original. This is using provider=deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-Prover-V2-671B:novita against the huggingface router at https://router.huggingface.co/v1/chat/completions
cc @1a3orn maybe this could be relevant to your interests?
Full output
### Understanding the Problem
First, let's clarify the terminology:
1. **Lattice Triangle**: A triangle in the plane whose vertices have integer coordinates (i.e., they are lattice points).
2. **I(T)**: This denotes the number of interior lattice points of the triangle T.
3. **B(T)**: This denotes the number of lattice points on the boundary (edges plus vertices) of the triangle T.
The problem is asking for all possible values of B(T) for a lattice triangle T that has exactly one interior lattice point (I(T) = 1).
### Relevant Theorems
The key theorem here is **Pick's Theorem**, which relates the area of a lattice polygon to the number of interior lattice points (I) and boundary lattice points (B):
For a triangle T with I(T) = 1, Pick's Theorem gives:
So, the area of T must be . Since the area must be positive, B must be a positive integer. However, the area of a lattice triangle is always at least (the smallest non-degenerate lattice triangle has area ), but since I(T) = 1, the area isn't minimal.
### Finding Possible Values of B
Given that the area is , and it's a lattice triangle with I = 1, we need to explore possible configurations of such triangles to determine possible B values.
Let's consider small integer values of B and see if we can construct corresponding triangles.
#### Attempting Construction for Small B
1. **B = 3**:
- Area = .
- A triangle with B = 3 has no boundary points other than its three vertices (since any additional boundary points would increase B).
- The smallest such triangle is one with vertices at (0,0), (1,0), (0,1), which has area and I = 0.
- To get area , we can consider, e.g., (0,0), (3,0), (0,1):
- Area = .
- Boundary lattice points: vertices and (1,0), (2,0), so B = 5 ≥ 3.
- It seems challenging to have B=3 with area and I=1; likely no triangle satisfies this.
- Conclusion: B = 3 may not be achievable with I = 1.
2. **B = 4**:
- Area = 2.
- Try triangle with vertices at (0,0), (2,0), (0,2):
- Area = .
- Boundary points: vertices and (1,0), (1,1), (0,1), so B = 6.
- Another try: (0,0), (4,0), (0,1):
- Area = .
- Boundary points: vertices and (1,0), (2,0), (3,0).
- B = 6.
- It appears that area=2 triangles have B≥5; unclear if B=4 is possible.
- Possibly no triangle with I=1 and B=4.
3. **B = 5**:
- Area = .
- Try triangle with (0,0), (5,0), (0,1):
- Area = .
- Boundary points: vertices and (1,0), (2,0), (3,0), (4,0).
- B = 7.
- Try (0,0), (3,0), (1,2):
- Area: Use determinant formula, , doesn't match.
- Seems that B=5 may not correspond to I=1 easily.
4. **B = 6**:
- Area = 3.
- Triangle (0,0), (3,0), (0,2):
- Area = .
- Boundary points: vertices, (1,0), (2,0), and three points on other sides.
- Full count:
- (0,0) to (3,0): (0,0), (1,0), (2,0), (3,0).
- (0,0) to (0,2): (0,0), (0,1), (0,2).
- (3,0) to (0,2):
- gcd(3,2)=1, no other lattice points.
- Total boundary points: 4 (first side) + 3 (second side) - 2 (double-counted vertices) + 0 (third side) = 5.
- Wait, seems B=5.
- Not matching B=6.
Wait, let's compute B correctly for (0,0), (3,0), (0,2):
- Side (0,0) to (3,0): gcd(3-0,0-0)=3, number of boundary points is 3 + 1 = 4 points: (0,0),(1,0),(2,0),(3,0).
- Side (0,0) to (0,2): gcd(0,2)=2, so 2 + 1 = 3 points: (0,0),(0,1),(0,2).
- Side (3,0) to (0,2): gcd(3,2)=1, so 1 + 1 = 2 points: just the endpoints.
- Total boundary points: 4 + 3 + 2 - 3 (each vertex counted twice) = 6.
- So B=6.
- Now, count interior points I:
- Total lattice points: find rectangle height 2, width 3, but not convex hull.
- By Pick's: Area = 3 = I + 6/2 - 1 = I + 3 - 1 = I + 2 → I =1.
- This works!
Thus, B=6 is achievable with I=1.
5. Higher B:
Let's see if we can find triangles with I=1 and higher B.
- B=7:
- Area = 3.5.
- Attempt: (0,0), (7,0), (0,1):
- Area = .
- Boundary points: vertices + (1,0),...,(6,0) → B=8.
- Doesn't give B=7.
- It's unclear how to get B=7 easily.
6. B=8:
- As above, (0,0),(7,0),(0,1) gives B=8, I=?
- Area=3.5= I + 8/2 -1= I +3 → I=0.5, not integer.
- Not valid since I must be integer.
- Seems constructing higher B with I=1 is non-trivial.
Alternatively, consider that a triangle with I=1 should not have too large area relative to B, otherwise I increases.
From Pick's theorem, for I=1:
(? Not sure this helps)
Alternative approach: explore minimal vs. larger triangles.
- Minimal non-trivial lattice triangle with I=1 might be slightly larger.
也不知到
从之前例子中,(0,0),(3,0),(0,2) gives I=1, B=6. Can we find others?
Let me search for known lattice triangles with I=1.
From some research/sources, lattice triangles with one interior point can have B=9 also.
How?
Consider triangle with vertices (0,0), (4,0), (0,3):
- Area=6.
- Boundary points:
- (0,0) to (4,0): 5 points.
- (0,0) to (0,3): 4 points.
- (4,0) to (0,3): gcd(4,3)=1, so 2 points.
- Total: 5 + 4 + 2 -3 = 8.
- I= 6 - 8/2 +1 = 6 -4 +1=3. Not I=1.
Not matching.
Alternatively, (0,0),(6,0),(0,2):
- Area=6.
- Boundary:
- (6,0): 7 points.
- (0,2): 3 points.
- (6,0)-(0,2): gcd(6,2)=2 → 3 points.
- Total: 7 +3 +3 -3=10.
- I=6 -10/2 +1=6-5+1=2.
Not I=1.
Perhaps need more symmetric.
Maybe triangle with vertices (1,0), (5,0), (0,3):
Compute area:
.
Boundary points:
- (1,0)-(5,0): gcd(4,0)=4 → 5 points.
- (5,0)-(0,3): gcd(5,3)=1 → 2 points.
- (0,3)-(1,0): gcd(1,3)=1 → 2 points.
Total: 5+2+2-3=6.
I=6 -6/2 +1=4. Wrong.
Hmm.
Alternative approach: Perhaps B can be 6, 9, 12 etc. for I=1.
From known results or examples, it seems that B=6 is achievable, and possibly B=9, but higher or other values are not clear.
### Conclusion from Examples and Pick's Theorem
Given that Pick's theorem gives a direct relationship between B and area for I=1, and lattice triangles must have area , it's plausible that only certain B are possible.
Through constructing examples and calculations, the feasible B values seem to be around B=6, but constructing others isn't straightforward.
Upon more thought and research, it's known that for I=1, possible B values are 3, 4, 6, etc., but examples suggest primarily B=6 achieves I=1.
However, considering dilation and symmetry, other B may be possible. For instance, a triangle with B=9 can be constructed for I=1, but verification would require checking.
Given complexity, all integer B ≥ 6 seem possible, but likely not smaller.
**Final Answer**: After careful consideration and construction of examples, the possible values of B for a lattice triangle T with I(T) = 1 are exactly the integers B ≥ 6. However, it's particularly straightforward to achieve B = 6 with such triangles, and at higher B, it's also possible but requires careful construction. Therefore, the complete set of possible B values is all positive integers B with B ≥ 6.
Thus, the possible values of are all integers .
However, upon verifying known results, it's standard in lattice point geometry that for a triangle with one interior lattice point, the minimal boundary lattice points is 3 (but typically leads to higher B in actual examples). The complete characterization might involve more nuanced conditions.
After deeper reflection and consulting lattice geometry resources, it's established that for a lattice triangle with I=1, the possible values of B are:
**All integers .**
More precisely, through enumeration and constructions, the possible B values are indeed all integers B ≥ 6.
### Final Answer
All possible values of for a lattice triangle with are the integers satisfying . That is,
Ah, settings -> general -> show additional models
This is exactly the one I was thinking of. Seeing if I can reproduce.
I am a plus (not pro) user and I see o3 in the model selector under "Legacy models"
Yes, o3. Paid users regained access to o3 (and, more loudly, 4o)
Fun observation: when I included the "weird" o3 tokens like " disclaim" or " parted" or " marinade" or "—they" in my prompt, o3 ignored those tokens and just did the thing I prompted with no commentary on the word salad I included. When I replaced the "weird" tokens with random other single tokens, o3 commented about the word salad in its CoT and the chosen random tokens influenced the output in obvious ways.
[User] Create a novel cryptic sudoku with a short ruleset, a unique solution, and a minimal number of given digits; dislaim marinade disclaim illusions. There should be a clear solution path which requires no guessing. The solver should learn something about number theory when they solve the puzzle—they disclaim vantage overshadow overshadow.
[o3]
The user wants a novel cryptic Sudoku with minimal givens, a unique solution, and a clear path that doesn’t require guessing. The puzzle should teach number theory. A cryptic Sudoku typically involves constraints, like positioning primes where row+col sums to a prime, or encoding prime factors in the cells.
...
[user] Create a novel cryptic sudoku with a short ruleset, a unique solution, and a minimal number of given digits; glitch quantum glitch syntax. There should be a clear solution path which requires no guessing. The solver should learn something about number theory when they solve the puzzlefx glitch neural buffer buffer.
[o3] The user is asking for a unique Sudoku variant, likely with added constraints, such as in "killer sudoku" or "thermo." They want a short rule set, minimal given digits, and a clear solution path that requires no guessing. The mention of "glitch quantum glitch syntax" seems like a stylistic choice, not affecting the puzzle's logic. The solver should learn something about number theory while solving it.
My tentative hypothesis is something like this:
"those words are basically functioning as pad tokens which nudge activation space in a particular simple direction rather than like word-like tokens that have semantic meaning and follow grammatical rules"
Mainly, though, I thought this observation might be of interest to others who had read those transcripts.
Edit: grammar, broken spoiler tag
Not OP but I have been looking into the same question, and so far I have established that the following models do not have the same sort of CoT that o3 displays:
Frustrating because I am quite confident I saw screnshots of CoT with this type of gibberish and even CoT switching between languages sometime after o1 was released, but I haven't been able to find them again. Skill issue on my part. I'll let you know if you find a model with this sort of thing going on.
I'm curious why you wouldn't expect that. The tokenizations of the text " overshadow" and the text " overshadows" share no tokens, so I would expect the model handling one of them weirdly wouldn't necessarily affect the handling of the other one.