see comments on Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, part 13, chapter 81 - Less Wrong

6 Post author: bogdanb 27 March 2012 06:07PM

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Comment author: see 28 March 2012 05:50:12AM *  23 points [-]

On the other hand, it's now in Dumbledore's interest to see Harry make a lot of money quickly in order to discharge the debt, which means he's far more likely to approve of things that otherwise would be considered unacceptable, like:

  • 1) Tricks with the Time Turner involving lotteries, stock markets, and the like.
  • 2) The gold/silver arbitrage idea.
  • 3) Personal appearance fees and other financial trading on his fame as The Boy Who Lived.
  • 4) Calling in debts owed by other Imperiused or supposedly-Imperiused victims of Voldemort.
  • 5) Dumbledore himself using the Philosopher's/Sorcerer's Stone to make a lot of gold.

In short, a sixty thousand Galleon debt, while it feels huge, is not obviously a major obstacle given the number of possible solutions already implicitly presented in HPMoR, and it would almost seem a cheat for it to be one

That wiping out the debt easily might have its own negative consequences, on the other hand, is potentially interesting.

Comment author: Percent_Carbon 28 March 2012 06:33:15AM 1 point [-]

Making gold probably breaks the 'no counterfeit' rule as far as the goblins are concerned. Before it was edited out, there was a bit where a goblin was suspicious of this in an early chapter. It was silver, but still.

Lucius has some kind of control over what Harry does because of the debt. That may limit some of these choices or just weaken them.

Harry doesn't need to use the Time Tuner to make money on a stoke market. He just needs to open a stock market.

But Dumbledore hasn't sacrificed his (twisted) ethics to suit his cause before. He is no more likely to do so now, just because it's convenient. This latest event is probably not strong enough to make him twist his ethics again, if you believe he twisted them in the past.

Comment author: Alsadius 28 March 2012 06:46:33AM 6 points [-]

But Dumbledore has given no sign that he finds it unethical to make money. All he's said was "You're not ready to play, I'm not going to give you the bankroll to upset the board". If the cash is going to something this concrete and hard to abuse, he'd likely allow it. I doubt he'd abet with a method as easy as the Philosopher's Stone, but he'd likely not stand in the way.

Comment author: Percent_Carbon 28 March 2012 08:18:27AM 2 points [-]

That is convincing and I'd change my post if this was that sort of place.

Still, with more that six years before the debt comes due, Dumbldoe can say the same thing, "Not old enough."

Comment author: linkhyrule5 29 March 2012 05:33:42AM 1 point [-]

And Harry can say, "Old enough to storm Azkaban. Old enough to get Lucius Malfoy to back down. Old enough to be deeply in debt."

Comment author: Percent_Carbon 29 March 2012 05:55:13AM 5 points [-]

That would be arguing that you should be allowed to do something because of all the things you were not successfully disallowed to do. It does not necessarily follow and probably does not Dumbledoredly follow.

Comment author: see 28 March 2012 08:46:22PM *  2 points [-]

Before it was edited out, there was a bit where a goblin was suspicious of this in an early chapter. It was silver, but still.

Of course, I could be wrong, but given that it was considered a legitimate source of "as much money and life as you could want" in canon, I'd expect HPMoR would be more explicit if it were considered illegitimate in HPMoR. Griphook's original reaction (which I have in a PDF I downloaded before the change) looked to me not like Griphook was wondering if Harry would be counterfeiting, and more like he thought Harry was planning to steal the Stone itself. (I assume it was edited out probably because the HP version of the stone, unlike the one in the AD&D DMGs, only makes metal into gold, and thus couldn't make silver.)

Comment author: Percent_Carbon 29 March 2012 05:16:39AM 1 point [-]

Would you please quote that passage here?

I believe it was cut because it told Harry the Philosopher's Stone exists. Harry is interested in eternal life, so finding out about the Stone would cause a confrontation EY means to save for the end.

Comment author: see 29 March 2012 07:17:57PM 7 points [-]

“I mean, suppose I came in here with a ton of silver. Could I get a ton of Sickles made from it?”

“For a fee, Mr. Potter-Evans-Verres.” The goblin watched him with glittering eyes. “For a certain fee. Where would you find a ton of silver, I wonder? Surely you would not be... expecting to lay your hands upon a Philosopher’s Stone?”

“Griphook!” hissed McGonagall.

“A Philosopher’s Stone?” Harry said, puzzled.

“Perhaps not, then,” said the goblin. His body, which had been taut, seemed to relax slightly.

“I was speaking hypothetically,” Harry said. For now, at any rate.

While the current version says

"I mean, suppose I came in here with a ton of silver. Could I get a ton of Sickles made from it?"

"For a fee, Mr. Potter-Evans-Verres." The goblin watched him with glittering eyes. "For a certain fee. Where would you find a ton of silver, I wonder?"

"I was speaking hypothetically," Harry said. For now, at any rate.

Comment author: Percent_Carbon 30 March 2012 05:53:44AM *  0 points [-]

Thank you.

Based on canon, the Stone was being removed from the care of Griphook's organization at that time. It seems less likely he'd be concerned about theft and more likely he'd be concerned about what impact the Stone might have on his people.

It's still a stab in the dark. But since pretty much the only thing we know about MoR!goblins is that they run 'banks' and they are in a constant state of war with counterfeiters, I think it's the best guess possible without diving out of MoR and into canon even more.

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