Eugine_Nier comments on Open thread for December 17-23, 2013 - Less Wrong

5 Post author: ciphergoth 17 December 2013 08:45PM

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Comment author: Eugine_Nier 29 December 2013 09:53:40PM -2 points [-]

I guess I had misread that (I had read “should” as ‘are likely to’ rather than ‘had better’), in which case... what??? I can't remember anyone ever suggesting anything remotely like that with a straight face,

They tend to phrase it as encouraging people to "find out if they're gay", i.e., encourage people to declare themselves "gay" if what amounts to 19th century style male bonding appeals to them. Furthermore, once someone has been declared "gay" it's considered a horrendous hate crime to discourage him from engaging in homosexual sex.

Comment author: [deleted] 30 December 2013 10:36:04AM 0 points [-]

They tend to phrase it as encouraging people to "find out if they're gay", i.e., encourage people to declare themselves "gay" if what amounts to 19th century style male bonding appeals to them.

Never heard that either.

Furthermore, once someone has been declared "gay" it's considered a horrendous hate crime to discourage him from engaging in homosexual sex.

And once someone has been declared "straight" it's considered a horrendous hate crime to discourage him from engaging in heterosexual sex (except by fundamentalist Christians and the like, but that also applies to gay sex), so what's your point?

Comment author: Eugine_Nier comment score below threshold [+] (5 children)

Comment author: [deleted] 31 December 2013 12:26:23AM * 0 points [-]

encouraging "straights" to become "gay" is framed as encouraging them to "find out if they're gay" and considered commendable.

What the hell are you talking about? AFAICT nearly all straight people I know would find such an, ahem, encouragement quite annoying at the very best, and most of them would be utterly disgusted by it. “I'm flattered, but I'm straight” said with a poker face is about as positive a reaction as I'd ever anticipate seeing.

Comment author: Moss_Piglet 31 December 2013 12:59:50AM * 2 points [-]

You and Eugine seem to be talking past one another;

He's saying that society tends to see it as (at worst) a bit of a faux pas for a gay man to try to get a straight to switch teams whereas a gay converter is one step off from an SS officer in terms of the hatred they get.

You, on the other hand, seem to be talking about how annoyed straight guys get when being harassed by gays trying to convert them, and presumably vice versa. That people get pissed off, with good reason, when people try to dictate terms to them on whom they desire.

Oddly enough, both of you are right. It is much more acceptable for gay men to be "straight chasers" and try to get straight guys to "come out" than it is for Christians to be "deconverters" and try to get gay guys to "find Jesus," at least everywhere I've lived (admittedly, my favorite cities tend to be pretty deep blue). People confronted with this kind of obnoxious behavior don't appreciate it in either case, but the straight guy has to be a lot more careful not to say anything "offensive" to the guy grabbing him (God forbid throwing a punch) than the gay guy who can tell the pastor to go to hell and walk off with the full force of the law / media behind him.

Comment author: pragmatist 31 December 2013 11:48:28AM * 4 points [-]

There seems to be a pretty big asymmetry here that you're ignoring. Christian "deconverters" aren't simply saying "Hey, why don't you try straight sex? You might end up enjoying it." They're saying "There is something deeply wrong with your sexual orientation and you will suffer eternally unless you sincerely attempt to change it." I doubt that attempts to convert straight men result in higher rates of depression or suicide among them.

The appropriate analog of the gay "straight chasers" you're talking about would be a straight woman who attempts to "convert" gay guys by, say, trying to convince them to sleep with her, maybe because she likes the challenge. Do you think such a person would also be seen as one step off from an SS officer?

Comment author: [deleted] 03 January 2014 06:02:59PM -1 points [-]

The appropriate analog of the gay "straight chasers" you're talking about would be a straight woman who attempts to "convert" gay guys by, say, trying to convince them to sleep with her, maybe because she likes the challenge. Do you think such a person would also be seen as one step off from an SS officer?

BTW, IME straight men who manage to convince lesbians to sleep with them usually inspire awe, not disgust. (I can't think of any concrete examples of the gender-reversed situation, which you described.)

Comment author: [deleted] 31 December 2013 09:36:21AM 1 point [-]

He's saying that society tends to see it as (at worst) a bit of a faux pas for a gay man to try to get a straight to switch teams

Actually he said it is “considered commendable”, but I see your point.

Eugine_Nier comments on Open thread for December 17-23, 2013 - Less Wrong

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