Harbor comments on Torture vs. Dust Specks - Less Wrong
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I think the reason people are hesitant to choose the dust speck option is that they view the number 3^^^3 as being insurmountable. It's a combo chain that unleashes a seemingly infinite amount of points in the "Bad events I have personally caused" category on their scoreboard. And I get that. If the torture option is a thousand bad points, and the dust speck is 1/1000th of a point for each person, than the math clearly states that torture is the better option.
But the thing is that you unleash that combo chain every day.
Everytime you burn a piece of coal, or eat a seed, or an apple, you are potentially causing mild inconvenience to a hypothetically infinitely higher number of people than 3^^^3. What if the piece of coal could warm someone else up? What if that seed's offspring would go on to spread and feed a massive amount of people? The same applies to all meat and all fruit, and most vegetables. By gaining a slight benefit now, you are potentially robbing over 3^^^3 people of their own slight benefit. Now, is it likely that said animal or seed will go on to benefit so many? Maybe not, but the chance exists. Are you willing to take that chance with a number like 3^^^3?
Well, you should be. Morality should not be solely based of off mathematical formula and cost/benefit analysis. It can greatly help determine a moral course of action, but if that is your motivation for wanting to do the right thing than you have lost sight of what morality is about. The basis of morality is this: Do unto others, as you would have done unto yourself. I, for one, would rather have a dust speck in my eye than be tortured for 50 years. And I wouldn't get 3^^^3 specks of dust in my eye, because none of them did either, they only got one. Even if I was assured of getting that many specks of dust in my eye, (in deep space, of course, because the resulting explosion of dust specks would surely engulf the Earth and possibly most of the Milky Way), I would still do it. Because I choose to save the person in front of me, and fix any negative results afterwards. I choose to stop the wrongdoing directly in front of me, because if everyone did so then everyone would be saved. Do what you can right now. Worry about dust specks later. Help that guy who is getting tortured now.
The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas Should Turn The Fuck Around And Sprint Back To The City, Because Holy Shit That Poor Kid Is Being Tortured So Those Fucks Can Have Air Conditioning. -An improved title, in my opinion.
A massive amount of beneficial outcomes being caused by one person's misfortune is not always justifiable. If they are innocent, it's not justifiable. If they were going to directly and consciously and maliciously cause the massive negative outcome that will result if you do not stop them, then it is arguably justifiable. However, there is only one situation, one context, in which one person's suffering for the benefit of countless others is wholly and totally justified.
You see, someone figured out the answer to this dilemna about 2000 years ago. You've probably heard of Him.
One person's suffering benefitting countless others is a beautiful thing when they choose to suffer of their own free will.
You can choose the 50 years of torture if you wish.....
But only if that person being tortured is you will it be anything other than total evil.
But you're also potentially causing a mild benefit to a hypothetically infinitely higher number of people than 3^^^3.
Perhaps that is how some people who prefer TORTURE to DUST SPECKS are thinking, but I see no reason to think it's all of them, and I am pretty sure some of them have better reasons than the rather strawmanny one you are proposing. For instance, consider the following:
... Anyway, by this point I am probably belabouring things severely enough that it's obvious where it ends. After not all that many more steps we arrive at a choice whose second option is a very large number of people (but still much much much smaller than 3^^^3 people!) getting a dust speck in their eye. And every single step involves a really small decrease in the severity of what they suffer, and a trillionfold increase in the number of people suffering. But the chain begins with TORTURE and ends with DUST SPECKS, or more precisely with something strictly less bad than DUST SPECKS because the number of people involved is so much smaller.
To consider TORTURE worse than DUST SPECKS is to consider that at least one of those steps is not making things worse: that at some point in the chain, having a trillion times more victims fails to outweigh a teeny-tiny decrease in the amount of suffering each one undergoes.
I am a little skeptical, on general principles, of any argument concerning situations so far beyond any that either I or my ancestors have any experience of. So I will not go so far as to say that this makes TORTURE obviously less bad than DUST SPECKS. But I will say that the argument I have sketched above appears to me to deserve taking much more seriously than you are taking the TORTURE side of the argument, with your talk of scoreboards.
This is a pretty good principle; there's a reason it and its near-equivalents have cropped up in religious and ethical systems over and over again since long before the particular instance I think you have in mind. But it doesn't deal well with cases where the "others" vary hugely in number. (It also has problems with cases where you and the others have very different preferences.)
This reasoning would also suggest that if you have to choose between having $10 stolen from each of a million people and having $20 stolen from one person, you should choose the latter. That seems obviously wrong to me; if you agree, you should reconsider.
You are vastly underestimating how big 3^^^3 is.
That sounds very nice, but if you are unable to fix the negative results this may sometimes be a really terrible policy. Also, in the usual version of the hypothetical the dust specks and the torture are not different in "remoteness", so I don't see how this heuristic actually helps resolve it.
It is not, in fact, the same dilemma. (E.g., because in that scenario it isn't "one person getting something very bad, versus vast numbers getting something that seems only trivially bad", it's "one person getting something very bad, versus quite large numbers getting something very bad".)
If you would like a religious argument then I would suggest the Open Thread as a better venue for it.
Anyway, I think your discussion of harming A in order to help B misses the point. Inflicting harm on other people is indeed horrible, but note that (1) in the TvDS scenario harm is being inflicted on other people either way, and if you just blithely assert that it's only in the TORTURE case that it's bad enough to be a problem then you're simply begging the original question; and (2) in the TvDS scenario no one is talking about inflicting harm on some people to prevent harm to others, or at least they needn't and probably shouldn't be. The question is simply "which of these is worse?", and you can and should answer that without treating one as the default and asking "should I bring about the other one to avoid this one?".
New situation: 3^^^3 people being tortured for 50 years, or one person getting tortured for 50 years and getting a single speck of dust in their eye.
By do unto others, I should, of course, torture the innumerably vast number of people, since I'd rather be tortured for 50 years than be tortured for 50 years and get dust in my eye.