Dallas comments on February 2015 Media Thread

Comment author: bramflakes 02 February 2015 12:16:47AM 8 points [-]

Allegedly.

Comment author: Dallas 02 February 2015 03:28:42AM 1 point [-]

Allegedly.

I don't really feel the need to write that when I am aware of it from personal experience.

Comment author: CellBioGuy 02 February 2015 12:18:53AM 1 point [-]

Kudos for the relevant response rather than what's going on below.

Comment author: alienist 01 February 2015 10:34:35PM 6 points [-]

Looking at your link, it appears that rather he is being accused of doing things that only qualify as "rape" due to the current anti-rape hysteria/witch hunt. Furthermore, given the nature of the accusations, and how a number of similar recent incidents have turned out to be groundless upon investigation, I'm not even convinced that the incidents described took place at all.

Certainly snark (and highly inaccurate) assides like:

especially considering the evidence is mounting that we effectively have the equivalent of a Catholic preacher in our midst.

don't do much for Jason's credibility.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 01 February 2015 11:44:27PM 2 points [-]

Looking at your link, it appears that rather he is being accused of doing things that only qualify as "rape" due to the current anti-rape hysteria/witch hunt.

From the link:

At The Amazing Meeting, Alison Smith, then-JREF employee through August 2010, and founder of the now defunct Skeptical Analysis of the Paranormal Society (down) (cached copy), alleges that Michael Shermer plied her with alcohol to the point of losing time and memory, then brought her to his hotel room and had non-consensual sex with her.

Is that really only considered rape due to "anti-rape hysteria/witch hunt"?

Comment author: alienist 01 February 2015 11:59:33PM 8 points [-]

What does "plied her with alcohol" mean? Does it mean that Shermer spiked her drink or force fed her alcohol? Most likely she was drinking with him had a little too much to drink when up to his hotel room, had sex with him, in the morning regretted it and decided to declare it non-consensual.

Calling an encounter like the above "rape" is precisely what I'm objecting too.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 02 February 2015 05:54:51AM 2 points [-]

Maybe it's as you describe, and maybe he was ignoring her saying no repeatedly. Why privilege only the hypothesis that makes Shermer innocent?

Also, the other accusations, while short of rape, are of bad behavior. Would you trust an ethicist who went around hitting people?

Comment author: RowanE 03 February 2015 06:00:14PM 1 point [-]

Don't we have a cultural tradition of privileging the hypothesis that makes someone innocent? I mean, I see people say "innocent until proven guilty" is just for the courtroom, but that strikes me as the same sort of thing as "it's only censorship if the government does it".

Comment author: JoshuaZ 02 February 2015 12:01:06AM 2 points [-]

Yeah, this is a problem. It is possible that such a situation is only retroactively declared to be non-consensual, but that's not what he's being accused of. He's being accused of it actually being non-consensual. Do you agree that non-consensual sex with a severely inebriated individual is rape? Because that's the central accusation here.

Comment author: advancedatheist 02 February 2015 01:42:22AM * 3 points [-]

Shermer writes that he got married a few months back. I wonder what the new Mrs. Shermer makes of these allegations: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/anomalous-events-that-can-shake-one-s-skepticism-to-the-core/

The whole sexual harassment thing at atheist conventions seems ironic, considering that for generations both christian authority figures and many atheists themselves have maintained that nonbelief in god can lead to a swinging sex life. I've read biographies of several well known atheists - Denis Diderot, Percy Shelley, Bertrand Russell, off the top of my head - and they all articulated some kind of ideological message linking their atheism with sexual freedom. Even female atheists like Emma Goldman, Ayn Rand and Madalyn Murray O'Hair have said things along those lines.

So what has actually happened? When you gather a bunch of atheists together for a conference, do you have a sexual utopia going on in the hotel rooms upstairs? Apparently not. But then people made other bad predictions about atheists' behavior before we had enough atheists around to supply empirical evidence. Godless women still reject non-alpha males, just like other women.

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 02 February 2015 08:52:11AM 4 points [-]

How is this relevant? I have never seen Mr. Shermer, so I have no idea whether he is an "alpha" or not, but regardless...

being an atheist does not imply a desire for a swinging sexual life
a swinging sexual life does not imply consent to sex with a specific person

So speculations about whether atheism can lead to sexual utopia in general are irrelevant for whether a specific person have raped another specific person.

Sexual freedom does not mean people must have sex with everyone. It means that if two (or more) people agree on having sex together, they can have it.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 02 February 2015 09:34:27AM 3 points [-]

Godless women still reject non-alpha males, just like other women.

Regardless of her fiction, in real life Rand seemed to prefer men she could dominate.

What do you mean by a sexual utopia?

Comment author: ChristianKl 02 February 2015 11:15:12AM 1 point [-]

Nothing in that article says something about sexual harassment.

Also don't confuse disbelief in God with atheists activism. One doesn't go to a convention about atheism because one doesn't believe. On goes because one cares enough about one's own beliefs to spread them. I wouldn't expect high openness to experience scores with that crowd.

The bigger LW events that I experienced for example do have a lot more physical intimacy, both male-male and male-female than "normal society" and what I would expect to be the norms at an atheist convention.

Despite that conventions with a high percentage of guys are in general not likely to lead to a lot of sexual activity.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 02 February 2015 06:22:16PM * 4 points [-]

Sexual harassment mentioned in this article. The bits I quoted include links, but I think it's more trouble than it's worth for me to reformat them for LW, so go back to the freethoughblog timeline if you want details.:

ChristianKl, which article were you referring to?

September, 2008

Gay has recounted in several places, without naming names, a story that while being introduced to Michael Shermer at Dragon*Con in 2008, he made a drunken lunge at her breasts instead of shaking her hand. DJ Grothe has related this story a number of times to a number of people, indicating that he had intervened to stop the public groping from happening.

May 2010

Ashley Miller At a dinner event she attended featuring PZ Myers, Ashley encounters Michael Shermer, who allegedly spoke with her for several minutes while massaging his genitals through his jeans. She describes the incident here.Pamela Gay

May 23rd, 2012

pseudonymous commenter Miriamne A comment left at Friendly Atheist names Michael Shermer as allegedly having harassed her, and “trying to sleep with a new young woman every TAM”.

August 7th, 2013

Unnamed victims via Brian Thompson Brian Thompson, former employee of JREF, claims to personally know a number of women who have been harassed by Shermer, via Twitter. He specifies two instances of ‘being creeped at’, one of ‘being groped’ (by Shermer and/or another alleged creeper, Ben Radford). This could certainly refer to him being present for Shermer’s lunge at Pamela Gay.

Elyse Anders Elyse describes some unwelcome salacious comments from Shermer after she drops a chicken tender at the TAM9 reception buffet.

August 7th, 2013

Unnamed victims via Brian Thompson Brian Thompson, former employee of JREF, claims to personally know a number of women who have been harassed by Shermer, via Twitter. He specifies two instances of ‘being creeped at’, one of ‘being groped’ (by Shermer and/or another alleged creeper, Ben Radford). This could certainly refer to him being present for Shermer’s lunge at Pamela Gay.

Elyse Anders Elyse describes some unwelcome salacious comments from Shermer after she drops a chicken tender at the TAM9 reception buffet.

August 9th, 2013

Unnamed victim through delphi_ote A participant at the JREF forums corroborates the existence of allegations against Michael Shermer by unnamed alleged victims.

August 8th, 2013

Unnamed victims via PZ Myers — Alison Smith PZ Myers posts accounts by sources he trusts regarding allegations of Michael Shermer’s witnessed and experienced predatory tactics and alleged sexual assault of women he coerced into a position where they could not legally consent.

naomibaker naomibaker relates her story about how she was contacted ostensibly by Michael Shermer’s wife asking if the story she told about a cheating husband without names was talking about Michael. She listed names that Shermer had apparently had affairs with, several of the names being recognizeable.

The timeline continues with legal actions and arguments about what happened, but has no additional allegations.

Comment author: Dallas 02 February 2015 08:12:40PM * 2 points [-]

The timeline continues with legal actions and arguments about what happened, but has no additional allegations.

You forgot me.

August 13th, 2013

Dallas J. Haugh

Dallas posts a suicide note which includes allegations of rape against Shermer. It is taken down by a relative when he is secured and taken to a hospital; after he’s released, he reposts it.

Dallas comments on February 2015 Media Thread - Less Wrong

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