Epictetus comments on Open Thread, Jun. 22 - Jun. 28, 2015 - Less Wrong

6 Post author: Gondolinian 22 June 2015 12:01AM

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Comment author: Epictetus 22 June 2015 04:15:44AM 8 points [-]

Revisited The Analects of Confucius. It's not hard to see why there's a stereotype of Confucius as a Deep Wisdom dispenser. Example:

The Master said, "It is Man who is capable of broadening the Way. It is not the Way that is capable of broadening Man."

I read a bit of the background information, and it turns out the book was compiled by Confucius' students after his death. That got me thinking that maybe it wasn't designed to be passively read. I wouldn't put forth a collection of sayings as a standalone philosophical work, but maybe I'd use it as a teaching aid. Perhaps one could periodically present students a saying of Confucius and ask them to think about it and discuss what the Master meant.

I've noticed this sort of thing in other works as well. Let's take the Dhammapada. In a similar vein, it's a collection of sayings of Buddha, compiled by his followers. There are commentaries giving background and context. I'm now getting the impression that it was designed to be just one part of a neophyte's education. There's a lot that one would get from teachers and more senior students, and then there are the sayings of the Master designed to stimulate thought and reflection

Going further west, this also seems to be the case with the Gospels.

With these works and those like them, there's this desire to stimulate reflection and provide a starting point for discussion. They're designed for initiates of a school of thought to progress further. Contrast this with works written by the masters themselves for their peers. It would be condescending to talk in short bursts of wisdom. No, this is where we get arguments clearly presented and spelled out. Short sayings are replaced with chains of reasoning designed to demonstrate the intended conclusion.

Comment author: [deleted] 29 June 2015 12:26:30PM 2 points [-]

It would be condescending to talk in short bursts of wisdom.

It would be condescending for the master too, to talk in short bursts of wisdom to his disciples, as long as he was alive. The issue is rather that once he dies, and the top level disciples gradually elevate the memory of the master into a quasi-deity, pass on the thoughts verbally for generations, and by the time they get around to writing it down the memory of the master is seen as such a big guy / deity and more or less gets worshipped so it becomes almost inconceivable to write it in anything but a condescending tone. But it does not really follow the masters were just as condescending IRL.

You can see this today. The Dalai Lama is really an easy guy, he does not really care how people should behave to him, he is just friendly and direct with everybody, but there is an "establishment" around him that really pushes visitors into high-respect mode. I had this experience with a lower lama, of a different school, I was anxious about getting etiquette right, hands together, bowing etc. then he just walked up to me, shook my hand in a western style, did not let it go but just dragged me halfway accross the room while patting me on the back and shaking with laughter at my surprise, it was simply his joke, his way of breaking the all too ceremonious mood. He was a totally non-condescending, direct, easy-going guy, who would engage everybody on an equal level, but a lot of retainers and helpers around him really put him and his boss (he was something of a top level helper of an even bigger guy too) on a pedestal.

Comment author: Epictetus 29 June 2015 02:42:58PM 1 point [-]

It would be condescending for the master too, to talk in short bursts of wisdom to his disciples, as long as he was alive.

Good point. I suppose what I had in mind is that when the disciple asks the master a question, the master can give a hint to help the disciple find the answer on his own. Answering a question with a question can prod someone into thinking about it from another angle. These are legitimate teaching methods. Using them outside of a teacher/student interaction is rather condescending, however.

The issue is rather that once he dies, and the top level disciples gradually elevate the memory of the master into a quasi-deity, pass on the thoughts verbally for generations, and by the time they get around to writing it down the memory of the master is seen as such a big guy / deity and more or less gets worshipped so it becomes almost inconceivable to write it in anything but a condescending tone.

This is also a major factor. Disciples like to make the Master into a demigod and some of his human side gets lost in the process.

Comment author: Zubon 26 June 2015 04:59:12PM *  1 point [-]

According to a distinction that originates with Aristotle himself, his writings are divisible into two groups: the "exoteric" and the "esoteric". Most scholars have understood this as a distinction between works Aristotle intended for the public (exoteric), and the more technical works intended for use within the Lyceum course / school (esoteric). Modern scholars commonly assume these latter to be Aristotle's own (unpolished) lecture notes (or in some cases possible notes by his students). ... Another common assumption is that none of the exoteric works is extant – that all of Aristotle's extant writings are of the esoteric kind.

Wikipedia on Aristotle

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