Subtitle: Costly virtue signaling is an irreplaceable source of empirical information about character.
The following is cross-posted from my blog, which is written for a more general audience, but I think the topic is most important to discuss here on LW.
We all hate virtue signaling, right? Even “virtue” itself has taken on a negative connotation. When we’re too preoccupied with how we appear to others, or even too preoccupied with being virtuous, it makes us inflexible and puts us out of touch with our real values and goals.
But I believe the pendulum has swung too far against virtue signaling. A quality virtue signal shows that a person follows through with their best understanding of the right thing to do, and is still one of the only insights we have into others’ characters and our own. I don’t care to defend empty “cheap talk” signals, but the best virtue signals offer some proof of their claim by being difficult to fake. Maybe, like being vegan, they take a great deal of forethought, awareness, and require regular social sacrifices. Being vegan proves dedication to a cause like animal rights or environmentalism proportional to the level of sacrifice required. The virtuous sacrifice of being vegan isn’t what makes veganism good for the animals or the environment, but it is a costly signal of character traits associated with the ability to make such a sacrifice. So the virtue signal of veganism doesn’t mean you are necessarily having a positive impact or that veganism is the best choice, but it does show that you as a person are committed, conscientious, gentle, or deeply bought into the cause such that the sacrifice becomes easier for you than it would be for other people. It shows character and acting out your values. Out of your commitment to doing the most good possible, you may notice that you start to think veganism isn’t actually the best way to help animals for a lot of people.1 I believe this represents a step forward for helping animals, but one problem is that now it’s much easier to hide lack of virtuous character traits from measurement.2 It’s harder to know where the lines are or how to track the character of the people you may one day have to decide to trust or not to trust, it’s harder to support virtuous norms that make it easier for the community to act out its values, and it’s harder to be accountable to yourself.
Many will think that it is good when a person stops virtue signaling, or that ostentatiously refusing to virtue signal is a greater sign of virtue. But is it really better when we stop offering others proof of positive qualities that are otherwise hard to directly assess? Is it better to give others no reason to trust us? Virtue signals are a proxy for what actually matters— what we are likely to do and the goals that are likely to guide our behavior in the future. There is much fear about goodharting (when you take the proxy measure as an end in itself, rather than the thing it was imperfectly measuring) and losing track of what really matters, but we cannot throw out the baby with the bathwater. All measures are proxy measures, and using proxies is the only way to ask empirical questions. Goodharting is always a risk when you measure things, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to measure character.
The cost of virtue signals can be high, and sometimes not worth it, but I submit that most people undervalue quality virtue signals. Imagine if Nabisco took the stance that it didn’t have anything to prove about the safety and quality of its food, and that food safety testing is just a virtue signal that wastes a bunch of product. They could be sincere, and somehow keep product quality and safety acceptably high, but they are taking away your way of knowing that. Quality control is a huge part of what it is to sell food, and monitoring your adherence to your values should be a huge part of your process of having positive impact on the world.
Virtue signaling is bad when signaling virtue is confused for possessing the signal of virtue is confused for having the desired effect upon the world. It is at its worst when all your energy goes to signaling virtue at the expense of improving the world. But signals of virtue, especially costly signals that are difficult to fake, are very useful tools. Even if I don’t agree with someone else’s principles, I trust them more when I see they are committed to living by the principles they believe in, and I trust them even more if they pay an ongoing tithe in time or effort or money that forces them to be very clear about their values. I also think that person should trust themselves more if they have a track record of good virtue signals. Trust, but verify.
The most common objections to the first version of this post were not actually objections to virtue signals per se, I claim, but disagreements about what signals are virtuous. My support of virtue signals requires some Theory of Mind— a quality virtue signal demonstrates character given that person’s beliefs about what is good. Say a person virtue signals mainly as signal of group membership— I may still judge that to show positive character traits if they believe that taking cues from the group and repping the group are good. If someone uses “virtue signals” cynically to manipulate others, I do not think they have virtuous character. Might an unvirtuous person be able to fool me with their fake virtue signals? Sure, but that will be a lot harder than to do that emitting a genuine virtue signal. Signals don’t have to be 100% reliable to be useful evidence.
Why care about virtue signals? Why not just look at what people do? Because we need to make educated guesses about cooperating with people in the future, especially ourselves. “Virtue” or “character” are names we give to our models of other people, and those models give us predictions about how they will act across a range of anticipated and unanticipated situations. (In our own case, watching our virtue metrics can not only be a way to assess if we are falling into motivated reasoning or untrustworthiness, but also the metric we use to help us improve and become more aligned with our values.) Sometimes you can just look at results instead of evaluating the character of the people involved, but sometimes a person’s virtue is all we have to go on.
Take the lofty business of saving the world. It’s important to be sure that you are really trying to help the world and, for example, not just doing what makes you feel good about yourself or allows you to see the world in a way you like. Sometimes, we can track the impact of our actions and interventions well, and so it doesn’t matter if the people who implement them are virtuous or not as long as the job is getting done. But for the biggest scores, like steering the course of the longterm future, we’re operating in the dark. Someone can sketch out their logic for how a longtermist intervention should work, but there are thousands of judgment calls they will have to make, a million empirical unknowns as to how the plan will unfold over the years, and, if any of us somehow live long enough to see the result, it will be far too late to do anything about it. Beyond evaluating the idea itself, the only insight most of us realistically have into the likelihood of this plan’s success is the virtue of the person executing it. Indeed, if the person executing the plan doesn’t have any more insight into his own murky depths than the untested stories he tells, he probably just has blind confidence.
Quality virtue signals are better than nothing. We should not allow ourselves to be lulled into the false safety of dwelling in a place of moral ambiguities that doesn’t permit real measurements. It’s not good to goodhart, but we also can’t be afraid of approximation when that’s the best we have. Judging virtue and character gives us approximations that go into our complex proprietary models, developed over millenia of evolution, of other human beings, and we need to avail ourselves of that information where little else is available.
I urge you to do the prosocial thing and develop and adopt more legible and meaningful virtue signals— for others and especially for yourself.
(This post was edited after publication, which is a common practice for me. See standard disclaimer.)
I’m not taking a position here. In fact, I think a mixed strategy with at least some people pushing the no-animals-as-food norm and others reducing animal consumption in various ways is best for the animals. At the time I of writing I am in a moral trade that involves me eating dairy, i.e. no longer being vegan, and the loss of the clean virtue signal was one of the things that prompted me to write this post.
Discussed this example in depth with Jacob Peacock, which partly inspired the post.
Sometimes, people generically hate on the general principle of virtue-signalling as an indirect way of signalling which virtues they disagree with OR which virtues are policed - eg polarizing virtues (while being able to maintain plausible deniability on what specific virtue signals they disagree on). Sometimes, this generic hatred of "virtue signalling" is also a generic hatred/dislike of "lawful good" [or "those more successful than them"], or those they perceive as having "higher pain tolerance than them" (a generalized hatred of all associated with virtue signalling led to the backlash culminating in the 2016 election, as Trump epitomized the intense hatred of BOTH republican and democrat forms of virtue-signalling - "signals" that the working class was unusually receptive to b/c there seems to be a difference in the capacity between "privileged" and "less privileged" in bearing the costs of virtue-signalling.) Trump once said "I LOVE the uneducated".
[Moloch-worship is another form of virtue-signalling, esp among those who always did better in the system than everyone else - eg seen by those who consistently "defend the administration" - eg BG at Caltech lol - see https://www.quora.com/What-do-people-think-of-this-2007-Thoughts-on-Finishing-Caltech-thread-on-AutoAdmit for counterpoint POV]. When I was surrounded with the noise of middle school/high school, I used to bond with Moloch-worshippers b/c I thought they were the ONLY people who had any intelligence or straightforwardedness in them...... (that was way way way before I finally discovered the "chaotic"/edgy technologists in elite universities/the SF Bay Area, who have since then become the base of my friend group.[1])
The "felt costliness" of "virtue-signalling" is higher in the working class than it is in richer elites. Those "privileged dems" can afford to Zahavi-handicap-signal (boi, from the POV of a working class white does seeing those libs [ESP EAs] Zahavi-handicap-virtue-signal by helping everyone in the out-outgroup who IS NOT THEM [esp immigrants! esp wild animals!] REALLY sting)
[it should be said that the biggest explicit haters on virtue-signalling tend not to be working-class-voters, where the term "virtue-signalling" isn't popular" [though they definitely feel a NOTION of the thing that Trump felt]. Explicitly stated intense hatred of "virtue signalling" is SUPER-COMMON among those who obsess with Peter Thiel.
(hatred of virtue signalling also can come from outsiders, as "virtue-signalling" is often a mesa-optimizing strategy to get "acceptance within the group", especially the more authoritarian members of the group).
I also think the choice of "vegetarianism/veganism" as an interesting choice in the OP of "virtue-signalling", because vegetarian/vegan virtue-signalling is the LEAST Moloch-aligned form of virtue-signalling, and thus different from ALL other forms of virtue-signalling. It's also the form of "virtue signalling" I'm most guilty of (whereas I historically had "thieltard" reactions to its other forms).
as of 2024, it really does seem that Trump represents a backlash to all the "woke/virtue signaling" in the US again, and unless we address people's collective anger on this [rural white rage, yes, but the rage has become multiracial in its manifestation too - many disaffected people go to Trump as the purest expression of rage against "the system"], we will have the existential catastrophe of the next Trump administration... People feel rage because this virtue-signaling "picks out winners [0] and losers", and the "losers" of this game (those not in what Laurens Gunnarsen describes as "the cult of conscientiousness" )have pure pure rage and no one to turn to, except Trump. Trump called out the entire system for what it was - "rigged". Maybe the 2020 election was not rigged, but everything upstream of it was.
And this backlash also is why many in that group hate the virtue-signally Mitch McConnell (and ESPECIALLY Mitt Romney) as much as the "woke Democrats", just as Trump turned on McConnell
And as LLMs become more open-source, these losers figure out how to integrate thie rage into the LLMs. Maybe this can be stopped, maybe not, but in the likelier possibility that the open-sourcing of rage-filled LLMs like GPTchan, why not try to do some trade where you actually respond to their rage in a more understanding matter? Understanding them matters for reducing all the risk of existential catastrophe, especially as they have all the free-time to fill up the world with [and... LLMs will become even more addicting and cause more people to fill themselves up with screentime]. The disaffected think that only "Trump can hear their unheard voices" - after all, he constantly yells [unless we can get sympathetic GPT to hear them BEFORE he does]
Virtue signalling will cost Democrats the 2024 election... unless
[related -http://benjaminrosshoffman.com/why-i-am-no-longer-anti-trump/ ]
https://www.fromthenew.world/p/the-human-nature-election
Roko on X: "The desire to virtue signal is stronger than the desire to not be exterminated by the machine god" / X (twitter.com)
https://archive.ph/NPsqp
2024-09-29 edit: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/28/opinion/kamala-harris-gun-vice-signalling.html
(and it looks like Kamala's strategy is to do the opposite - to signal that she is NOT one of those "holier-than-thou" dems). this is how she ultimately saved an election whose outcome could otherwise become catastrophic. she, at least, was able to read some of the signals the electorate sent. If you read the book "White Rural Rage", you'll note that much of the working-class white electorate votes against its own interests just to express all its rage, and while it seems "irrational" or "dumb", maybe there was a game-theoretic strategy realized in this self-destructive act (I practice self-destructive acts just for attention too, sometimes just to signal rage at how others don't realize how "unfair" the playing field is to those who weren't born in the right place...) Maybe it's okay if those damn virtue-signalling BG libs failed at self-control/moral purity or intellectual rigor or life from time to time!
[0] eg goody two-shoes people who succeed in all the g-and-conscientiousness mini-games of school [what Laurens Gunnarsen describes as "the cult of conscientiousness"]
=====
[1] Lol, a lot of intense visceral strong emotion/anger/trauma/edginess in this history has been removed from this post... which is like.. a LONG FASCINATING STORY... I had a uniquely high level of hatred against the system for denying me entrance to the gifted program. The system assigns "winners and losers" based on the dumbest criteria ever, this system affects your entire life, and only the disaffected feel this, and their rage against this is why they would uniquely vote for Trump over anyone else - b/c Trump is the biggest most virtue-free loser ever, and yet has still "won in the most important way". And people need this shoved in the face of the "woke elites" - if only the "woke elites" could be neuroplastic or open-minded enough to recognize this, unless... [who is it who can convince @sama to actually enlighten them? Is No Labels enough to wake the Dems up? It's a step in the right direction, but it still is not]
So also I feel other people's anger/rage at schooling (or anything associated with "virtue signalling" that is associated with the system). Michael Gibson does, too, but his book just does not have reach. What if... his book could be an easter egg in a video game like The Elder Scrolls Skyrim..?
it also hasn't quite ended, because a new force came out that has a small but emotionally salient enough chance to completely obliterate the hierarchy of how I emotionally factor ALL of Moloch/techno-progressivism/edginess/elite universities/drugs/ADHD/"narcisssism"/Bryan Caplan/Thiel Fellowship [and the person who turned out to become my ALL TIME FAVORITE THIEL FELLOW]/Hillybilly Elegy/insecurities/intelligence/Stanford Duck Syndrome/Michael Faraday/Michael O Church/CP Snow's "two cultures"/cancel culture/"narcissism"/trauma/Sarah Constantin/Stephen Hsu/two of my friends who dated each other for several years and then had the most epic breakup ever..... => ALL WHICH HAVE ELEMENTS RELATED TO HOW PEOPLE EMOTIONALLY INTERACT TO VIRTUE-SIGNALLING
[but much of my intense historical trauma came from me TRYING TO mesa-optimize/virtue-signal, and failing at it because I came from a shitty school. Then I FINALLY found and sought out the edgelords at elite universities + finally turned someone into a Thiel Fellow, and NOTHING EVER WAS THE SAME EVER AGAIN]
(so much emotional intensity was factored out of this post, but one has told me I have a moral duty to write out the story at last).
(part of the reason roon is so popular on X is b/c he doesn't virtue-signal - he once said that the best humor comes from those who combine "high-brow" and "low-brow" [stephen hsu is a little like this tho - he vicesignals partly by saying what the CCP likes to hear - is too obvious about his IQism])
PS: part of the reason why many Slavs are so endearing is that they are the most nihilistic/most self-ironic/least-PC/least virtue-signally population EVER.
#MyFavoritePostEver
related: peter turchin's elite oversocialization