Hi. I'm Clarisse Thorn, a BDSM educator and activist. I blog at [ http://clarissethorn.wordpress.com/ ]. Props to Michael Bishop for directing me to your post.
Wow, where to begin. I'll try not to get too upset, but for me, this was a really bad start to your post:
::::::::::: Many people think of masochism as a sexual perversion :::::::::::
Why did you start right out by referring to BDSM as a "sexual perversion"? Couldn't you have chosen some less judgmental words? Seriously, it would have been so easy. You could have just said "sexual preference". Instead, you chose to use language loaded with stigma.
::::::::::: When we find ourselves acting masochistically, should we try to "correct" it? :::::::::::
Amazingly, people are different and do things for different reasons. I assume you agree. Perhaps this means that if people find themselves acting masochistically, they should take different actions depending on their individual personalities.
I don't have much to say about non-sexual masochism, but I have a lot to say about sexual masochism ....
Many people see BDSM as an inbuilt sexual identity or "orientation". In that case, "corre...
I very often read things in this community that suggests that sexuality is very much not one of the matters on which they have succeeded in being rational.
For the record, I'm a practicing sadomasochist; I enjoy both sadism and masochism, and have a large range of paraphenalia to that end. I'm having an absolutely fantastic time with it, and though I know tastes differ, from where I'm sitting if you're not a sadomasochist then you're missing out on the great fun we're having.
I seem to recall Robin asking whether learning about wine increased your ability to take pleasure in good wine, or just spoiled your enjoyment of cheap wine.
Note that one doesn't need to be actively bigoted in order to do harm. The vast majority of those who are slowing down the spread of rational thought aren't religious fundamentalists out to stop rationality; no, they're the completely innocent ones who unthinkingly pass on cached thoughts.
It's no different when it comes to attitudes concerning, say, BDSM. I don't for a moment think that Goetz was actively bigoted when he wrote that. That doesn't mean that he shouldn't have worded it differently. More generally... it's often dangerous to think "but (he isn't / I am not) bigoted", as if only active bigots could say harmful things. Once the harmfulness of what they're saying is pointed out to them, they automatically go on the defensive - after all, only bigots say bad things, and they're not a bigot, so the other person must simply be oversensitive.
This probably deserves a top-level post.
I don't think pain and failure are the same thing. I like spicy food quite a bit, and I think it's the intensity as much as anything.
On the other hand, my reaction is a straightforward "Oh goody! Spicy food!"-- the kick has nothing to do with a satisfaction in overcoming my own resistance. I believe a lot of the attraction of endurance sports (something I don't feel) is in the latter.
My impression is that masochism includes both motivations.
I believe that intensity is a very strong motivation-- for some people it's a stronger motivation than safe...
But there are ordinary, acceptable behaviors
So, sexual perversion isn't ordinary or acceptable?
Pain triggers endorphins in order to help us fight or flee, and it feels good.
This is certainly an explanation consistent with BDSM usage of pain, and can be entirely independent of any sexual component.
Question 2: Doubtless some of the behaviors I listed have completely different explanations, some of which might not involve masochism at all. Which do you think involve enjoying pain? Can you cluster them by causal mechanism?
None of the examples necessarily involve the enjoyment of pain so they don't necessarily fit the technical meaning of masochism. They do fit the colloquial definition of masochism though, which is somewhat different. More along the lines of 'enjoying doing things that make you feel like a tough badass even though pain may be an u...
The psychologist Michael Bader recently wrote a rather nice book that touches on this subject, called Arousal: The Secret Logic of Sexual Fantasies.
His analysis of masochism (among many other things) is that it helps the masochist feel safe in a way that allows their desire freedom to be expressed.
For example:
I'll add another hypothesis. There are plenty of simple, harmless ways to induce pain of almost unlimited intensity, while doing the same with pleasure tends to involve nasty side-effects. Due to neuroplasticity, we can train ourselves to get our pleasure/pain wires crossed, thereby making intense pleasure "cheaper."
This would explain why children often at first dislike spicy food, horror films, roller coasters, etc.
I'm not sure how much this applies to "being Bruce."
I was surprised not to find any evo-psych explanations for masochism on the web; or even any general theory of masochism that tried to unite two different behaviors.
Keith Henson's Evolutionary Psychology, Memes, and the Origins of War suggests an explanation in passing.
What about 5. Linkage to another belief that causes us to associate so-called masochistic behavior with something good?
Some people like BDSM because they like the feeling of someone being else in control. Some people like being hit because they associate it with the love of their parents. Some people wallow in bad feelings because that's how they learned to get attention.
I think question 2 is an important one. These behaviors can be logically grouped together as "masochistic', but the kinds of "bad" that they move towards are completel...
Playing extremely difficult video games, such as I Wanna Be The Guy, seems to be another form of entertainment related to masochism.
Also, rock music seems to be part of its own progression, based on slightly earlier styles such as blues, ragtime, and jazz, which have their roots in African music.
Several of the items on your list have straightforward explanations that are variations on 3. In partiular, horror movies and rollercoasters are a controlled means of inducing fear for the emotional response it causes; and spicy food, if by that you mean food with substantial capsaicin levels, is a controlled and completely safe means of inducing arbitrary levels of pain in order to enjoy the resulting endorphin high.
On the other hand, while I'm not familiar with Alban Berg, I voluntarily listen to "music" that probably puts his work to shame in ...
Question 3: When we find ourselves acting masochistically, should we try to "correct" it? Or is it part of a healthy human's nature? If so, what's the evolutionary-psych explanation?
Um. The evolutionary-psych explanation is Azathoth does not care about your happiness. If there are instances where masochism makes one more likely to win, then masochists will survive. It seems obvious that there are, especially if that masochism is context-sensitive.
Webern is actually on my playlist. 5 Movements isn't unpleasant, and 2 Arrangements of Bach's Fuga (Ricercata) is awesome.
there is nothing inherently wrong with masochism and it would certainly be sad to eliminate all the experiences you list above.
Vivaldi -> Bach -> Mozart -> Beethoven -> Wagner -> Stravinsky -> Berg -> screw it, let's invent rock and roll and start over
I'm afraid your model of music history is no better than your model of Eliezer's mind.
I don't want to get into the numerous problems with this right now, other than to say that it is supremely annoying when people speak about popular music (such as rock and roll) as if it were the "successor" of art music of the past. The successor to the art music of the past is the art music of the present. (That m...
no one seems to do the experiment of writing a "story" which consists entirely of friends getting together for a good meal and pleasant conversation, with nothing at all going wrong and not the faintest threat on even the most remote horizon.
Well, there is a certain fictional genre of which a large component comprises vignettes involving people getting together for mutually enjoyable social interaction, with no threats and indeed not much reference to anything outside of that interaction.
It is, admittedly, an extremely low-status genre... but it enjoys a certain robust-though-discreet popularity nonetheless, both in text and video. (Albeit I suspect more the latter than the former.)
Not sure what, if anything, follows from this.
Vivaldi -> Bach -> Mozart -> Beethoven -> Wagner -> Stravinsky -> Berg -> screw it, let's invent rock and roll and start over
I'm afraid your model of music history is no better than your model of Eliezer's mind.
I don't want to get into the numerous problems with this right now, other than to say that it is supremely annoying when people speak about popular music (such as rock and roll) as if it were the "successor" of art of music of the past. The successor to the art music of the past is the art music of the present. (Tha...
:::::::::: Many people do think of BDSM as a sexual perversion. I didn't invent this reality; I just live here. ::::::::::
This answer strikes me as a bit facile. Sure, lots of people think of BDSM as a sexual perversion. Lots of people also consider it a sexual preference. You chose to use words that stigmatize BDSM, and you chose not to present words that don't stigmatize BDSM. You could have made the same point without using stigmatizing words. Stating that you have no opinion after the fact is an attempt to dodge responsibility for that.
The way we frame these things matters. I wouldn't have such a problem with what you said if you had at least noted the judgment inherent in the terms you used -- but you didn't. For instance, if you really have no negative judgments around BDSM, then you might have said something like: "Many people think of masochism as a sexual perversion, while others see it as a harmless sexual preference."
:::::::::: That's probably more sympathetic to your view than anything you'll find in mainstream media, or even in psychology journals. ::::::::::
Like those of people, the opinions presented in mainstream media and psychology journals vary. As it happens, I will be speaking at a psychology conference in May that's specifically intended to train psychology professionals in being more sensitive to BDSM-identified patients. (The conference will take place at Chicago's Center on Halsted.)
And again, by claiming that you've been more sympathetic to my opinions than "other" forms of media, you're trying to dodge responsibility for the fact that you presented a plainly judgmental viewpoint.
:::::::::: If that means that you resent discussion of the idea, this website isn't right for you. We discuss things that make us uncomfortable, because we want to know the answer. ::::::::::
Discuss the idea all you want. Just know, while you're "examining", that there are real people who have real masochistic needs whom you may really be stigmatizing with what you say. And the idea that you must "examine" this need in itself can be stigmatizing.
Perhaps I can illustrate this with an example: Would you even consider "examining" why gay people are gay? Why straight people are straight? I don't know this site very well. Maybe you would discuss those questions. But if you wouldn't, then perhaps it might be worth asking yourself why you think it's worth examining masochism and wondering what "causes" it, when you don't ask similar questions about straightness or LGBTQ or what have you.
For more on this, I recommend this post: [ http://sm-feminist.blogspot.com/2009/03/examination-burnout.html ]
:::::::::: Could you post some links to specific pages discussing theories? ::::::::::
I can try; I don't have a lot of time to hunt down specific posts, but I've read a lot on this topic and I might be able to come up with something. It would be helpful if you could ask a more specific question, though.
It's probably obvious that my personal favorite BDSM theory blog is SM-Feminist: [ http://sm-feminist.blogspot.com/ ]
But I don't think she has much truck with evol-psych, either, though I could be wrong.
If you jump into discussions of BDSM with moral accusations, and threaten people with social rejection unless they discuss it the way you want them to, you discourage people from talking about it at all. That's not to your advantage.
Thanks for the links - I'll look into them. I appreciate your sharing your knowledge.
Followup to Stuck in the middle with Bruce:
Bruce is a description of masochistic personality disorder. Bruce's dysfunctional behavior may or may not be related to sexual masochism [safe for work], which is demonized by most people in America. Yet there are ordinary, socially-accepted behaviors that seem partly masochistic to me:
Question 1: Can you list more?
Question 2: Doubtless some of the behaviors I listed have completely different explanations, some of which might not involve masochism at all. Which do you think involve enjoying pain? Can you cluster them by causal mechanism?
Question 3: When we find ourselves acting masochistically, should we try to "correct" it? Or is it part of a healthy human's nature? If so, what's the evolutionary-psych explanation? (I was surprised not to find any evo-psych explanations for masochism on the web; or even any general theory of masochism that tried to unite two different behaviors. All I found were the ideas that sexual masochism is caused by bad childhood models of love, and that masochistic personality is caused by other, unspecified bad experiences. No suggestion that masochism is part of our normal pleasure mechanism.)
Some hypotheses:
My guess is that, if it's a side-effect (e.g., 3) or a non-causal association (4), it's okay to eliminate masochism. Otherwise, that could be risky.
These all lead up to Question 4, which is a fun-theory question: Would purging ourselves of masochism make life less fun?
ADDED: Question 5: Can we train ourselves not to be Bruce without damaging our enjoyment of these other things?