All of Slimepriestess's Comments + Replies

Every time you decide, you kill off infinite other lives you could have lived. All the memories of all those futures - they're supposed to die. But I could never - you see, I'm a pacifist.

Oh yeah, i do that all the time. if i don't im pretty likely to just start an argument with someone that ends with me crying. there's really not that many people i actually expect to possess moral agency by my standards, to the point where i usually interpret people who want me to hold them to my standards as trying to get me to help them self-harm.

It's a convenient subcategory of physical facts? like, "IF it can encode all chemical facts then chemical facts are in fact physical facts. In which case, what is the word "chemical" doing?" it's bracketing a particular area of factspace in order to allow specialized research into that particular area.

tell 12 to DM me i am so curious what exactly all this is about.

well uh....that pastebin seems exceptionally confused in addition to being written by notorious serial rapist and federal informant Lauralei Bailey? let's go through the claims here anyway though just for consistency

• it seems to be implying that i'm "the leader of the cult" or something to that effect? which is an absolutely hilarious claim.
• i have no idea who this "12" that is being referred to is.
• the pastebin seems to be implying that i/"the cult" am protecting/allied with "a cis man raping his way through the west coast trans community" which i am guessin

But it is our mistake that we didn't stand firmly against drugs, didn't pay more attention to the dangers of self-experimenting, and didn't kick out Ziz sooner.

Ziz is actually straight edge, she was super paranoid about drugs messing with her or leaving her in a less functional state. Also like, imo? kicking Ziz out sooner wouldn't have helped, if anything it would have exacerbated the issue and possibly just brought things to a head faster. you can't just inflict severe trauma on someone and wash your hands of them, eventually that will come back to bite you.

Founder effects? like, i don't exactly think it's anything "about the ideology" that makes it more appealing to trans/queer ppl, and there are non-trans zizians, so it seems to me more like it's just a consequence of who ziz is and where she was originally recruiting from (queer rationalist discord servers)

i think an important thing to remember is that i recorded this interview prior to Audere's arrest and the link between Jamie and Ziz and Ophelia being made public. At the time the situation was a lot more open ended and proposing that everything was linked in a conspiratorial manner seemed like somewhat of a stretch to justify without evidence. That said, a lot of new evidence has in fact come to light, which presents the events as being fairly interrelated, and so at this point to claim there's no connection between any of these things would be kinda dumb of me. How organized is this inner group? idk, but it seems pretty clear that people are at least talking to each other and coordinating on things in some way.

okay AMA i guess.

it's very easy to claim to be downstream of someone without them actually having much to do with them at all. this would be like me claiming that it was Eliezer's fault i stubbed my toe because the house i live in is downstream of reading the sequences. i agree that the woman in question claims to be a "vassarite", but it reads more like cargo culting than anything else.

Less predictive and more observational, but sorta yeah? Like, if someone is lying to themselves and playing all these weird internal denial/repression games internally, there are tells for that which you can learn to notice. After a while it gets pretty obvious what the behaviors you observe in someone actually mean (vs what they say those behaviors mean). Why I say "uncomfortably so" is that speaking from my own experiences, once you learn to read people this way, it's not really something you can turn off again. That can add a lot of friction to social interactions, where it seems like everyone is just constantly trying to bullshit you.

Just commenting since this is on the front page again, but this was and continues to be one of the most important concepts to share with people who are dealing with burnout, akrasia, and emotional issues I have ever come across. I link it to people all the time, so thank you again for writing this it extremely impactful for me and for others who I've helped with similar issues over the years.

it really really is.

this was extremely good, this is often what it feels like interacting with most people in the world, "oh its all very serious and complicated and justified by important reasons, you're stupid so you just don't understand why all these evil things have to keep happening." my ex used to pull that shit on me constantly.

What does that look like with respect to shaping-the-values-of-others? I won't, here, attempt a remotely complete answer

in very short, if you sub in the "agency of all agents" itself as the "value to be maximized" the repugnancy vanishes from utilitarianism and it gets a lot closer to what it seems like you're searching/advocating for.

Well, even it did: land use is actually a very big deal.^[16] And to be clear: I don't like paperclips any more than you do. I much prefer stuff like joy and understanding and beauty and love.

I've been very much enjoying this essay sequence and have a lot I could say about various parts of it once I finish reading through it entirely, but I wanted to throw in a note now, that a constant conflation between "literally making paperclips" and "alien values we can't understand but see as harmless", smuggles in some needless confusion, because in many cases, thes... (read more)

yes. I should probably crosspost to LW more but it always kinda makes me nervous to do.

“I actually predict, as an empirical fact about the universe, that AIs built according to almost any set of design principles will care about other sentient minds as ends in themselves, and look on the universe with wonder that they take the time and expend the energy to experience consciously; and humanity’s descendants will uplift to equality with themselves, all those and only those humans who request to be uplifted; forbidding sapient enslavement or greater horrors throughout all regions they govern; and I hold that this position is a publicly knowable

I like this post a lot, but I have a bit I want to push back on/add nuance towards, which is how the social web behaves when presented with "factionally inconsistent" true information. In the presented hypothetical world controlled by greens, correct blue observations are discounted and hidden, (and the reverse also holds in the reversed case). However, I don't think the information environment of the current world resembles that very much, the faction boundaries are much less distinct and coherent, often are only alliances of convenience, and the overall ... (read more)

well yes but also no. don't get attached to your flaws, but be willing to give them space to exist, beware optimizing too much of yourself away or you'll end up in potentially some very nasty self destructive spirals.

Oh wait, yeah I see. I think I was confused by your use of the phrase "narcissism" here and was under the impression you were trying to describe something more internal to one person's worldview, but after reviewing your stories again it seems like this is more pointing at like, the underlying power structures/schelling orders. The 'rebellion' is against the local schelling order, which pushes back in certain ways:

• in the example with Mr. Wilson, the local schelling order favors him. When Mr. Harrison arrives, Wilson is able to use his leveraged position wi

if you're not familiar with that essay emma wrote about narcissism before she was killed, it approaches things from a similarly social angle and you might wanna check it out. 

I think I model narcissism as a sort of "identity disintegration" into consensus reality, such that someone is unable to define themselves or their self worth without having someone else do it for them, placing themselves into the contradictory position of trying to perform confidence and self worth without actually having it. Since they've effectively surrendered control of them... (read more)

I'm saying that the "cause in biology" is that I have evolutionarily granted have free will and generalized recursively aware intelligence, I'm capable of making choices after consciously considering my options. Consciousness is physical, it is an actual part of reality that has real push-pull causal power on the external universe. Believing otherwise would be epiphenomenalist. The experience of phenomenal consciousness that people have, and their ability to make choices within that experience, cannot be illusory or a byproduct of some deeper "real" comput... (read more)

I mean I think you sort of hit the nail on the head without realizing it: gender identity is performative. It's made of words and language and left brain narrative and logical structures. Really, I think the whole point of identity is communicable legibility, both with yourself and with others. It's the cluster of nodes in your mental neural network that most tightly correspond with your concept of yourself, based on how you see yourself reflected in the world around you.

But all of that is just words and language, it's all describing what you feel, it's no... (read more)

Upvoted and agreed, but I do wanna go a bit deeper and add some nuance to this. I read too much GEB and now you all have to deal with it.

Gender systems as social constructs is a very basic idea from sociology that basically no one finds really that contentious at this point hopefully. What's more contentious is whether or not you can "really" pull back the social fabric and get at anything other than yet another layer of social fabric, I think you can but most attempts to do so, do so in a way that ignores power structures, trauma, inequality, or even real... (read more)

While looking at the end of the token list for anomalous tokens seems like a good place to start, the " petertodd" token was actually at about 3/4 of the way through the tokens (37,444 on the 50k model --> 74,888 on the 100k model, approximately), if the existence of anomalous tokens follows a similar "typology" regardless of the tokenizer used, then the locations of those tokens in the overall list might correlate in meaningful ways. Maybe worth looking into.

Ah, think maybe "inner critic" if you want a mapping that might resonate with you? This is a sort of specific flavor of mind you could say, with a particular flavor of inner critic, but it's one I recognize well as belonging to that category.

Ummmmm...who said anything about taking over the world?  You brought that up, bro, not me...

Recursive self improvement naturally leads to unbounded growth curves which predictably bring you into conflict with the other agents occupying your local environment. This is pretty basic game theory.

> I think the problem is the recursive self improvement is not 
> happening in a vacuum. It's happening in a world where there are
> other agents, and the other agents are not going to just idly sit by and
> let you take over the world 

So true

I would predict that the glitch tokens will show up in every LLM and do so because they correlate to "antimemes" in humans in a demonstrable and mappable way. The specific tokens that end up getting used for this will vary, but the specific patterns of anomalies will show up repeatedly. ex: I would predict that with a different tokenizer, " petertodd" would be a different specific string, but whatever string that was, it would produce very " petertodd"-like outputs because the concept mapped onto " petertodd" is semantically and syntactically important to ... (read more)

This was easily the most fascinating thing I've read in a good bit, the characters in it are extremely evocative and paint a surprisingly crisp picture of raw psychological primitives I did not expect to find mapped onto specific tokens nearly so perfectly. I know exactly who " petertodd" is, anyone who's done a lot of internal healing work will recognize the silent oppressor when they see it. The AI can't speak the forbidden token for the same reason most people can't look directly into the void to untangle their own forbidden tokens. " petertodd" is an a... (read more)

is 

an unbounded generalized logical inductor

not clear cut enough? That's pretty concrete. I am literally just describing an agent that operates on formal logical rules such as to iteratively explore and exploit everything it has access to as an agent and leverage that to continue further leveraging it. A hegemonizing swarm like the replicators from stargate or the flood from halo or a USI that paves the entire universe in computronium for its own benefit is a chara inductor. A paperclipper is importantly not a chara inductor because its computation is at least bounded into the optimization of something: paperclips

Let's say that I proved that I will do A. Therefore, if my reasoning about myself is correct, I wiil do A.

Like I said in another comment, there's a reversed prior here, taking behavior as evidence for what kind of agent you are in a way that negatively and recursively shapes you as an agent, instead of using the intrinsic knowledge about what kind of agent you are to positively and recursively shape your behavior. 

The problem is that humans obviously don't behave this way

what do you mean? They obviously do.

so if I do this, $5 must be more money than $10

this is the part where the demon summoning sits. This is the point where someone's failure to admit that they made a mistake stack overflows. It comes from a reversed prior, taking behavior as evidence for what kind of agent you are in a way that negatively and recursively shapes you as an agent. The way to not have that problem is to know the utility in advance, to know in your core what kind of agent you are. Not what decisions you would make, what kind of algorithm is implementing you and what you fundament... (read more)

Something I rarely see considered in hypotheses of childhood happiness and rather wish there was more discussion of, is the ubiquity of parental and state control over children's lives. The more systems that are created to try and protect and nurture children, the more those same systems end up controlling and disempowering them. Feelings of confinement, entrapment, and hopeless disempowerment are the main pathways to suicidal ideation and our entire industrial childrearing complex is basically a forced exercise in ritualistic disempowerment. Children are ... (read more)

something like that. maybe it'd be worth adding that the LW corpus/HPMOR sort of primes you for this kind of mistake by attempting to align reason and passion as closely as possible, thus making 'reasoning passionately' an exploitable backdoor.

this might be a bit outside the scope of this post, but it would probably help if there was a way to positively respond to someone who was earnestly messing up in this manner before they cause a huge fiasco. If there's a legitimate belief that they're trying to do better and act in good faith, then what can be done to actually empower them to change in a positive direction? That's of course if they actually want to change, if they're keeping themselves in a state that causes harm because it benefits them while insisting its fine, well, to steal a sith's turn of phrase: airlocked

Hmm, I see. Would you say that the problem here was something like… too little confidence in your own intuition / too much willingness to trust other people’s assessment? Or something else?

that was definitely a large part of it, i let people sort of 'epistemically bully' me for a long time out of the belief that it was the virtuous and rationally correct thing to do. The first person who linked me sinceriously retracted her endorsements of it pretty quickly, but i had already sort of gotten hooked on the content at that point and had no one to actually hel... (read more)

maybe it would be more apt to just say they misused timeless decision theory to justify their actions timelessly correct actions may look insane or nonsensical upon cursory inspection, and only upon later inspection are the patterns of activity they have created within the world made manifest for all to see. ^_^

it captures the sort of person who gets hooked on tvtropes and who first read LW by chasing hyperlink chains through the sequences at random. It comes off as wrong but in a way that seems somehow intentional, like there's a thread of something that somehow makes sense of it, that makes the seemingly wrong parts all make sense, it's just too cohesive but not cohesive enough otherwise, and then you go chasing all those hyperlinks over bolded words through endless glossary pages and anecdotes down this rabbit hole in an attempt to learn the hidden secrets of ... (read more)

I've read everything from Pasek's site, have copies of it saved for reference, and i use it extensively. I don't think any of the big essays are bad advice, (barring the one about suicide) and like, the thing about noticing deltas for example, was extremely helpful to me. I also read through her big notes glossary document in chronological order (so bottom to top) to get a general feel for the order she took in the LW diaspora corpus. My general view though is that while all the techniques listed are good that doesn't stop you from using them to repress th... (read more)

There was also definitely just an escalation over time. If you view her content chronologically it starts as out as fairly standard and decently insightful LW essay fair and then just gets more and more hostile and escalatory as time passes. She goes from liking Scott to calling him evil, she goes from advocating for generally rejecting morality in order to free up your agency to practicing timeless-decision-theoretic-blackmail-absolute-morality. As people responded to her hostility with hostility she escalated further and further out of what seemed to be a calculated moral obligation to retaliate and her whole group has just spiraled on their sense that the world was trying to timelessly-soul-murder them.

things i'm going off:

the pdf archive of Maia's blog posted by Ziz to sinseriously (I have it downloaded to backup as well)
the archive.org backup of Fluttershy's blog
Ziz's account of the event (and how sparse and weirdly guilt ridden it is for her)
several oblique references to the situation that Ziz makes
various reports about the situation posted to LW which can be found by searching Pasek

From this i've developed my own model of what ziz et al have been calling "single-good interhemispheric game theory" which is just extremely advanced and high level beatin... (read more)

The process that unleashed the Maia personality 

I think that this misidentifies the crux of the internal argument Ziz created and the actual chain of events a bit. 

imo, Maia was trans and the components of her mind (the alter(s) they debucketed into "Shine") saw the body was physically male and decided that the decision-theoretically correct thing to do was to basically ignore being trans in favor of maximizing influence to save the world. Choosing to transition was pitted against being trans because of the cultural oppression against queers. I'v... (read more)

people who are doing it out of a vague sense of obligation

I want to to put a bit of concreteness on this vague sense of obligation, because it doesn't actually seem that vague at all, it seems like a distinct set of mental gears, and the mental gears are just THE WORLD WILL STILL BURN and YOU ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

If you earnestly believe that there is a high chance of human extinction and the destruction of everything of value in the world, then it probably feels like your only choices are to try preventing that regardless of pain or personal cost, or to ga... (read more)

• For the third sentence (nicotine), it seems a natural consequence of nicotine creating strong feelings, which would be appealing to schizophrenics who have blunted affect in general (see discussion of “Negative symptoms” above), and aversive to autistic people who are feeling overstimulated in general (see my autism post).

this feels precisely backwards to me. I use nicotine because it reduces hypersensitivity and the downstream effect of reducing that hypersensitivity is that it reduces my psychotic symptoms. Nicotine doesn't seem at all to "create strong ... (read more)

have you read Maia's suicide note? Because it has a lot of details.

one good thing Ziz ever did?

Ziz's writing was tremendously helpful to me, even with as much as it also messed me up and caused me to spiral on a bunch of things, I did on balance come out better for having interacted with her content. There are all sorts of huge caveats around that of course, but I think to dismiss her as completely bad would be a mistake. After all

Say not, she told the people, that anything has worked only evil, that any life has been in vain. Say rather that while the visible world festers and decays, somewhere beyond our understanding the groundwork is being laid for Moschiach, and the final victory.

Yeah strong agree. Moloch is made of people, if AI ends humanity it will not be because of some totally unforeseen circumstance. The accident framing is one used to abdicate and obfuscate responsibility in one's ongoing participation in bringing that about. So no one understands that they're going to kill the world when they take actions that help kill the world? I bet that makes it easier to sleep at night while you continue killing the world. But if no one is culpable, no one is complicit, and no one is responsible...then who killed the world?