I have lately found myself using two particular strategies quite often during discussions and want to make sure that their logical structure is valid. So, I thought what better place to have them dismantled than LW :)
[1] The first strategy involves sending a hypothetical example's equivalent back in time and using the present knowledge of the outcome as a justification for the validity or not of the argument. The last time I used this was when someone tried to convince me that IQ is the main factor for human value by asking me which one is superior, a technologically developed, high IQ culture vs an under-developed mid IQ one?
I responded that I can not rationaly know what to do based on only this information. When pushed on why and on making a choice, I responded that if you were asking me this question about pre-war Germany in the place of the highly developed country using your own logic you would choose Germany as superior but we now know that the 'superior' country was morally inferior (I assumed correctly that they accept similar definitions of good and evil and German actions in the war were evil). With the benefit of hindsight we now know that this would be the wrong decision so their argument is demonstrably wrong.
Now, I don't want to get into this argument here. I just want to know if the strategy I used is logicaly valid as they did not accept it and instead, more or less, accused me of sophistry.
[2] The second strategy is more suspect to my estimation but I am not sure why. In this method I demonstrate humanities miniscule understanding of reality (when put in proper perspective) and use this as a basis for a kind of attitude. Here is an example:
When discussing whether life has meaning or not one answer I use is a pragmatic one. The issue at hand is deciding how to act. In other words which belief to use as a motivation for action. There are two epistemic possibilites:
- [2.1] life has meaning
- [2.2] life does not have meaning.
First of all, we do not know if life has meaning or can estimate with any reasonable confidence. We can estimate based on current data but our data is tiny compared to the whole of reality. Therefore, we should always act as if [2.1] is true on the basis that, if true, we (personally or humanity as a whole) might understand and even contribute towards it. If [2.2] is true on the other hand the things to be lost (like effort, comfort etc.) are nothing in comparison.
(Woops, I just casualy introduced a discussion starter about the meaning of life... - sorry about that :P - Feel free to respond on whether the presented argument is sound but please do it in a seperate comment from the one discussing whether it is logically valid)
2) That depends entirely on the definition of meaning, just as AndHisHorse points out. It's not clear to me what is the most accepted definition of meaning, not even among scientists, let alone laymen.
One could even define meaning as loosely as "a map/representation of something that is depdendant or entangled with reality". Most people seem to use meaning and purpose interchangably. In this case I like purpose better, because then we can ask "what is the purpose of this hammer" and there is a reasonable answer to it that we all know. And if you furtner ask "why does it have purpose" you can say because humans made it to fulfill a certain function, which is therefore its purpose.
But be careful; "what is the purpose of a wing" (or alternatively insert any other biologically evolved feature here) may be a deeply confused question. In the case of the hammer "purpose" is a future-directed function/utility because an agent shaped it. In the case of a wing, there is no future-directed function, but rather a past-directed reason for its existance. Therefore, "In order to fly" is not the correct answer to the question "why do wings exist", the correct answer has to be past-directed (something like "becasue it enabled many generations before to do X, Y, and Z and thus became selected for by the environment"). So the purpose of hammers and wings aren't necessarily well-defined questions at all.
Humans, being biologically evolved beings, don't have purpose in the sense of a hammer, but only in the sense of a wing - the difference however may be, that we can exert more agency than a wing or a bird and can actually create things with purpose and can thus possibly give ourselves or our lives purpose.
My answer then would be that we don't have future-directed purpose apart from whatever purpose(s) we choose to give ourselves. Sure we may be in a simulation, but there is little evidence that this simulation is in any way about us, we may just be a complete by-product of whatever purpose the simulation may have.
Yes I think you and AndHisHorse are right on your criticism of [2].
I also really loved the past-directed future-directed distinction you are making! It kind of corners me towards making a teleological argument as a response, which I have to support against the evolutionary evidence of a past-directed purpose! There is another answer I can attempt that is based on the pragmatic view of truth but phew… I don't think I am ready for that at the moment :)
Thanks!