My guess as to why this got down-voted:
1) This reads like a manifesto, and not an argument. It reads like an aspirational poster, and not a plan. It feels like marketing, and not communication.
2) The style vaguely feels like something ChatGPT might right. Brightly polished, safe and stale.
3) This post doesn't have any clear connection to making people less-wrong or reducing x-risks.
3) wouldn't have been much of an issue if not for 1 and 2. And 1 is an issue because, for the most part, LW has an aversion to "PR". 2 is an issue because ChatGPT is now a thing so styles of writing which are like ChatGPT's are viewed as likely to have been written by ChatGPT. This is an issue because texts written by ChatGPT often have little thought put into them, are unlikely to contain much that's novel, and frequently have errors.
What kind of post could you have written which would have been better received? I'll give some examples.
1) A concrete proposal for UBI that you thought was under-valued
2) An argument addressing some problems people have with UBI (e.g. who pays for all of it? After UBI is implemented and society reaches an equilibrium, won't rents-seeking systems just suck up all the UBI money leaving people no better off than before?).
3) Or a post which was explicit about wanting to get people interested in UBI, and asked for feedback on potential draft messages.
In general, if you had informed people of something you genuinely believe, or told them about something you have tried and found useful, or asked sincere questions, then I think you'd have got a better reception.
- The style vaguely feels like something ChatGPT might right. Brightly polished, safe and stale.
It is definitely ChatGPT. There are a lot of things in the essay that make no sense the moment you stop and think about what is actually being said. For example:
At its core, UBI is about ensuring that everyone has the financial resources to meet their basic needs.
Not "at its core". That is what UBI is.
For businesses, UBI provides a stable customer base...
A customer base for buying basic necessities, but not for anything above that, like a shiny new games console. And a customer base for basic necessities already exists. Broadly speaking (a glance at Wikipedia), in the developed world it falls about 10 to 20% short of being the entire population, and there are typically government programs of some sort to assist most of the rest.
...and a workforce
How does UBI provide a workforce? UBI pays people whether they work or not. That's what the U means. One of the motivations for UBI is a predicted lack of any useful employment for large numbers of people in the near future.
By investing in UBI, businesses can
How does a business "invest in UBI"? UBI is paid by the government out of taxes.
The beauty of UBI lies in its potential to align individual aspirations with collective progress. By ensuring that basic needs are met, we free people to contribute their skills and energy to areas where they’re most needed
People will already pay people to do the work that they need done. Is it envisaged that under UBI, people will joyfully "contribute their skills and energy" without pay, at whatever work someone has judged to be "needed"? I don't know, but the more I look at this passage the more the apparent meaning drains out of it. There is nothing here but hurrah words. There is nothing in the whole essay.
Yes, I used ChatGPT to polish the English, it did a great job 👍 while I am of course myself responsible for every point in this post.
To your comments:
This post points out that it’s better for the business to actively co-shape UBI instead of passively rejecting it. For humanitarian reasons, it’s good to ensure the existential minimum for everyone, even those too old or too sick to learn or work. If this minimum is already covered by other governmental programs or philanthropic organizations, there’s no need to include it in UBI. If business co-shape UBI, they can ask it to be conditioned on completing training programs, like the certificates offered by Microsoft. It’s an illusion that the market can automatically solve the problem. The market mechanisms only says that in an economic downturn, staff should be laid off. When the economy recovers, they can be re-hired. But the market mechanism doesn’t take care to maintain a disciplined reserve workforce in the meantime. When business starts to re-hire, they may find it difficult to find qualified staff, because part of the workforce drifted off in the meantime, some got mental problems, or alcohol/drug problems, some were radicalized, beside the agony suffered by the laid-off staff and destabilization faced by the society, it also becomes more expensive for the business to find qualified staff when they need them. Of course you can say that it’s the government’s job to take care for the unemployed, but of course government has to raise taxes for its social programs. If business actively co-shapes, it can make such programs more effective and efficient, have the reserve workforce trained in the way they can better find a job or start self-employment/start-up that can better meet the needs of the economy, and that at a lower cost.
If business co-shape UBI, they can ask it to be conditioned on completing training programs
I don't think you (or the chatbot that helped you with that reply) understand what "UBI" means. UBI is the proposal that everyone is given a fixed basic income, funded from taxes, unconditional upon anything. No means tests, no requirement to do anything to qualify, nothing. Everyone gets it, no matter what their circumstances. It might coexist with other welfare schemes, but those are not part of UBI.
It doesn’t make sense to argue about definitions. If you define UBI so, then so does UBI mean for you. I’m actively pushing for a redefinition of UBI, or reshaping the policy as I said, because I thinks it’s the right thing to do.
Did I reply in so perfect English that it sounded like corrected by ChatGPT? Cheer to my English, which has improved so much! 🥂
This is not about what UBI "means to me", but about what the basic idea is that everyone but you calls "UBI". The basic idea is to sweep away all of the various special-case means-tested benefits that require armies of staff to implement, and replace them by a single one that is paid to everyone. Are you alive? Are you a citizen? Then you get the UBI. That's it. That is the fundamental idea.
You can advocate for different welfare systems involving means tests and training vouchers and food stamps and businesses lobbying for this and that, but you don't get to call that a "redefinition" of UBI, any more than you can redefine "blue" to mean the colour of bananas or "France" to mean Australia.
I don’t deny that many, maybe the majority, view UBI as unconditional. But to say ALL define UBI this way is a really strong statement, do you have any proof?
Here an example I found on Britannica:
Uganda’s UBI trial, the Youth Opportunities Program, enabled participants to invest in skills training as well as tools and materials, resulting in an increase of business assets by 57%, work hours by 17%, and earnings by 38%.
Christopher Blattman et al., “Generating Skilled Self-Employment in Developing Countries: Experimental Evidence from Uganda,” ssrn.com, Nov. 14, 2013
Link: https://www.britannica.com/procon/universal-basic-income-UBI-debate
The article you link begins by bluntly saying, "Universal basic income (UBI) is an unconditional cash payment given at regular intervals by the government to all residents, regardless of their earnings or employment status." Yes! That is what UBI is! It continues, "UBI remains largely theoretical and, thus, does not have much of a history." Yes! That is also true!
Various partial versions have been tried to a limited extent. But the Blattman et al paper the article cites does not claim to have anything to do with UBI. Neither "UBI" nor "universal" occur anywhere in that paper, and the welfare scheme it studies is nothing like UBI. The reference is irrelevant to the encyclopedia article, which has no business calling it "Uganda’s UBI trial".
Have Encyclopedia Britannica sunk so low as to use chatbots to write for them? Eheu!
If definition was so important to me, I could argue with you what unconditional really means and if the unsupervised Uganda program falls under the definition of UBI even when it’s only granted to applicants with a valid proposal. But I give up, you win. And I don’t have to defend Britannica, because it’s so well established.
I’m personally responsible for every point in my post, not ChatGPT. While I can conceive some don’t like ChatGPT, I don’t understand what’s the purpose of human written comments if you use exactly the same phrases as Kennaway: “something ChatGPT might right”, etc.
I have genuine belief in what I published. This post is a call to the business to actively co-shape UBI instead of passively rejecting it. Whoever pays, has accordingly more say, like if Microsoft co-finances UBI, it can ask UBI recipients to learn its online courses and make certificates, so when the economy recovers and Microsoft again wants to hire more people, it can more easily find qualified staff. I don’t know what other companies may want, but in general if you don’t participate in the financing, you also have no say.
- RE: "something ChatGPT might right", sorry for the error. I wrote the comment quickly, as otherwise I wouldn't have written it at all.
- Using ChatGPT to improve your writing is fine. I just want you to be aware that there's an aversion to its style here.
- Kennaway was quoting what I said, probably so he could make his reply more precise.
- I didn't down-vote your post, for what it's worth.
- There's a LW norm, which seems to hold less force in recent years, for people to explain why they downvote something. I thought it would've been dispiriting to get negative feedback with no explanation, so I figured I'd explain in place of the people who downvoted you.
- I don't understand why businesses would be co-financing UBI instead of some government tax. Nor do I get why it would be desirable or even feasible, given the co-ordination issues.
- If companies get to make UBI conditional on people learning certain things, then it's not a UBI. Instead, it's a peculiar sort of training program.
- What does economic recovery have to do with UBI?
1Thank you for the explanation.
By actively co-shaping UBI, businesses can make it more effective and efficient, by training the reserve workforce in the way needed by the economy, with more cost control. Of course, if businesses prefer to pay tax and let government do it, it’s also OK, can even be more efficient if businesses trust the expertise of the government. It’s analogous to when consumers buy from businesses, it’s always more efficient to have the specialized companies produce everything, but we also observe DIY projects and it’s good that they are not forbidden. If you DIY something, you can gain knowledge and better discern good products from bad ones, so you can make informed purchases. By doing DIY, you can better understand the effort made by companies and why they deserve to be paid. And if some companies misuse their expertise and charge too much from you, you can have DIY as fall-back option. Analogously, it’s a good idea to let business and other tax payers have the possibility to participate in design of political programs like UBI, although they can certainly opt for paying tax and letting government do everything, although I think it’s a good idea that the government consults businesses and other stake holders to make the UBI more aligned with the need of the society.
As much as I know, UBI isn’t a real policy yet, it’s not yet determined how much UBI everyone should get, whether it’s paid out in dollars or vouchers for training programs or other things, whether the amount everyone gets should depend on their personal effort etc. Thus, I used UBI as an abstract, philosophical term capturing the promise of society to support individuals in need, and I personally think this support should also contain incentives for the recipients to improve themselves, and if UBI is realized, it’s also recommendable to have a good coordination with other existing benefits, training programs, philanthropic supports, etc, lest someone get less than others merely because they are covered by less support.
That UBI can generate a stable consumer base for businesses is well known, but coupled with training programs, it can also support a reserve workforce pool. The market only dictates layoff during economic downturn and re-hiring during recovery, but does nothing for the time in between, where part of the workforce, if lacking proper support, may drift off and be lost to mental problems, alcohol/drug problems, or radicalized. So when business starts to rehire, it can be hard for them to find qualified staff. If you take this into account, it can even save cost by maintaining and supporting a reserve workforce during the downturn, because it makes it easier for businesses to find qualified workers, but also suppliers, once the economy recovers. So with reserve workforce I don’t only mean potential salary takers, but also self-employed like Uber drivers, or startup founders who deliver services and products.
As much as I know, UBI isn’t a real policy yet, it’s not yet determined how much UBI everyone should get, whether it’s paid out in dollars or vouchers for training programs or other things, whether the amount everyone gets should depend on their personal effort etc.
As I just said in another comment, that is not what the term "UBI" was coined to mean. Everyone gets it, unconditionally. It's paid out in money, not coupons reserved for a particular use. No-one is required to do anything on account of receiving it.
If you want to talk about other welfare schemes that do not work like that, go ahead, but don't call them UBI.
Imagine a world where we live longer, healthier, and happier. Whenever there’s a lack in any area—be it healthcare, chip production, or anything else—there’s a motivated and well-trained talent pool ready to step in. As long as you are willing to improve yourself and contribute to our common community, you can count on its support and no longer worry about “For every job, so many men. So many men no one needs.”
This vision of the future feels like it belongs in a utopian novel, but it doesn’t have to remain fiction. Universal Basic Income (UBI) can serve as a foundation for turning this vision into reality. By providing everyone with a baseline of financial security, we can unlock human potential and tackle society’s most pressing challenges together.
Disclaimer
This post was polished with ChatGPT to improve readability, but I take full responsibility for every point made here. While “UBI” often refers to unconditional monetary payments, I use it more broadly to discuss societal support systems that balance individual freedom with collective well-being. My goal is not to advocate for a specific version of UBI but to encourage stakeholders—especially businesses—to actively participate in co-shaping solutions that maximize benefits for individuals and society alike.
Rather than focusing on fairness or entitlement, I view UBI through an economic lens, prioritizing efficiency, effectiveness, and mutual value. For example, integrating health checks or skill certifications into UBI can support individual care and societal needs, while still respecting the principle of providing meaningful support at minimal cost. I welcome feedback and ideas on how we can collaboratively design such systems.
UBI: Beyond Survival, Toward Progress
At its core, UBI is about ensuring that everyone has the financial resources to meet their basic needs. But its potential goes far beyond survival. Imagine the possibilities when individuals no longer live in fear of job displacement or economic instability. UBI allows people to pursue education, develop skills, or even explore entrepreneurship without the constant pressure to make ends meet.
For businesses, UBI provides a stable customer base and a workforce ready to adapt to future industries. By investing in UBI, businesses can help shape policies that align with their long-term goals while ensuring societal stability. For instance, jobless individuals could use UBI as a stepping stone to acquire new skills and certifications relevant to emerging industries, bridging the gap between current job markets and future opportunities.
A Partnership Between Business and Society
Critics often see UBI as purely redistributive, but it can also be transformative. When businesses view UBI recipients as potential customers and employees, they gain the opportunity to co-shape policies that benefit both society and their bottom line. For instance, UBI could be designed to incentivize participation in skill development programs or create pathways for reintegration into the workforce.
In countries like Germany, jobless individuals already have access to training and seminars, but these are sometimes disconnected from market needs. A more integrated approach, involving businesses, could make such programs more effective. Imagine if companies like Microsoft offered widely recognized certifications as part of UBI-funded programs. This alignment would not only reduce inefficiencies but also ensure that UBI contributes to long-term economic growth.
Building a Resilient Society
UBI isn’t just about helping individuals; it’s about fostering resilience at every level of society. A well-implemented UBI policy can:
• Provide a safety net that empowers individuals to innovate and take risks.
• Support smooth transitions for workers in declining industries, avoiding radicalization caused by economic despair.
• Create a society where economic shocks—whether due to automation, climate change, or pandemics—can be absorbed without widespread suffering.
The beauty of UBI lies in its potential to align individual aspirations with collective progress. By ensuring that basic needs are met, we free people to contribute their skills and energy to areas where they’re most needed, from healthcare to technology, while businesses gain access to a more secure and adaptable workforce.
Let’s Shape the Future Together
Universal Basic Income isn’t a magic solution, but it’s a tool—a powerful one—that can help us navigate the uncertainties of the future. Its success depends on collaboration between governments, businesses, and individuals. By shaping UBI policies thoughtfully, we can build a brighter future where economic security and opportunity go hand in hand.
The conversation about UBI has already begun. Now is the time to take it further—constructively and creatively. Whether you’re a business leader, policymaker, or engaged citizen, your voice matters. Together, we can transform the idea of UBI into a reality that works for everyone.
#UniversalBasicIncome #FutureOfWork #WorkforceDevelopment #BusinessAndSociety #EconomicSecurity #Innovation #FutureEconomy #Upskilling #ResilientSociety #Collaboration