Just give up already
I cannot say how many arguments I've had where this would have prevented hurt feelings. Often, after the argument, I discover the other person persisted in arguing for about 10 minutes after they realized they were wrong, all the while getting more angry at me for shooting down ever worse rationalizations.
To be fair, the way this happens isn't that the person persists in arguing for something they know to be false; instead, they drop a subtle hint that maybe they might be wrong and we should stop talking about it now (presumably so they can save face). I invariably miss this hint (well, I'm better now that I know to be looking for it, but not a lot) because it's usually in the form of a ridiculous but hard to disprove objection, to which I (because I'm weird) will come up with a medium-good response. This pisses my interlocutor off, because I missed their social cue, and because I've now forced them to defend a belief (their lousy objection) that they don't actually hold.
This behavior is very understandable; once I noticed others doing it, I noticed a tendency in myself. It's surprisingly hard to say, "Oops, I guess I'm wrong," or, "I can't see a good counter argument to what you're saying; maybe I need to reconsider."
Anyway, I'm saying this because the article linked by the quoted phrase wasn't quite what I was hoping for on the subject. :)
The Story of Bob does have an adequate answer in the "vocabulary of harms". The implicit claim that it does not echoes claims of Jonathan Haidt in much of his work on morality, especially his "five pillars" theory and subsequent extrapolations which have been eagerly seized upon by conservative proponents as evidence that liberals are narrow-minded.
It therefore irritates me a great deal when I see such claims going unchallenged, despite their (to me, anyway) obvious inaccuracy.
Here, then, is my "harm/care-based moral system" take on The Sacrifice of Bob:
I'm going to presume that the fictional culture in the story is reasonably happy and prosperous, otherwise we would have been talking about how terrible their culture is even before the sacrifice had taken place.
since most of them have incoherent explicit metaethics
Is there a coherent metaethical theory specified in a single document somewhere on the Internet? Or does the theory have to be compiled from multiple blog posts? I guess I'm not sure what you're talking about...
I'm curious about the opening line: It is a general and primary principle of rationality, that we should not ... enforce upon our fellows a law which there is insufficient justification to enforce.
On my ordinary understanding of the sentence, it seems to imply that acting justly is necessarily part of what Eliezer means by "acting rationally". Is this right?
More explicitly: the implication is that refraining from "enforcing insufficiently justified laws" is a "general and primary" principle of rationality. Perhaps what is m...
I'm going to comment on the presentation (I have no objection to the ideas):
This piece pleased me immensely in the beginning. The "F" grade anecdote was perfect and actually enraged me upon later reflection. In spite of that, I don't feel the persuasion was manipulative.
The reiteration of the linked ideas was good. I especially liked the story of the irrational gambler who could be used as money pump.
The material up to and including the Greene dilemma was good.
Following that, however, is a painfully verbose recapitulation of the opening "...
I see a lot of people in the comments to this post talking about divorcing the "damage report" aspect of pain from the "unpleasant experience" aspect. This won't work -- at least, not in naive form. Emotions are what motivate people to do things. If you take away the negative emotional impact of pain without some kind of situational fine-tuning, you might as well remove pain entirely. Those people with pain asymbolia that I mentioned previously are indifferent to the threat of harm.
I have a question for lesswrong readers. Please excuse any awkwardness in phrasing or diction--I am not formally trained in philosophy. What do you consider to be the "self"? Your physical body, your subconscious and conscious processes combined, consciousness, or something else? Also, do you consider your "past selves" and "future selves" to be part of a whole with your "present self," and to what extent? For an example of why the distinction might be important, let's say that one night, you sleepwalk and steal a th...
and where it came from (evolution? culture?)
Once you know a source, how do you know whether it makes your morals more or less likely to be true? A lazy thinker would just wind up engaging in Bulverism.
only at the point of explaining why pain is a bad thing
Would you adapt that if speaking into the chronophone to a time before negative-utilitarianism?
All moral codes drill down to a rocky core of "ick," though. Suppose A says, "Well it's clearly wrong." And C says, "No, it's not. Make your case." The case is made when A says, "B inevitably leads to D. Does D make you feel icky?" and C says, "It does."
It's true that people in the past had a lot of icky feelings we don't have today. We also have a lot of icky feelings they didn't have. Given that, I would like to see a follow-up article written about, under this framework, how many more letters of the alphabet have to agree with A before A gets to punish C for making him feel icky, depending on the number of letters in agreement, how severe the ick, that kind of thing.
It is a general and primary principle of rationality, that we should not believe that which there is insufficient reason to believe, nor enforce upon our fellows a law which there is insufficient justification to enforce.
Is that a principle, or a tautology?
Nonetheless, I've always felt a bit nervous about demanding that people be able to explain things in words, because, while I happen to be pretty good at that, most people aren't.
I was thinking just yesterday that this is a problem in communications between men and women. Women know a lot of thing...
I felt that all of the points made could be said in a post about half the length. The points are something I have noticed, do not need to be persuaded of, and put into better words than I could have before (which illustrates a main point of the post) but I feel that they could persuade a sceptical reader, even if rewritten at half the length.
If you don't mind me asking... How does anyone who believes that pain and/or death is bad NOT conclude that pepperoni pizza is bad?
It is a general and primary principle of rationality, that we should not believe that which there is insufficient reason to believe; likewise, a principle of social morality that we should not enforce upon our fellows a law which there is insufficient justification to enforce.
Nonetheless, I've always felt a bit nervous about demanding that people be able to explain things in words, because, while I happen to be pretty good at that, most people aren't.
This experience permanently traumatized Ms. Egan, by the way. Because years later, at a WTA conference, one of the speakers said that something was true, and Ms. Egan said "What do you mean, 'true'?", and the speaker gave some incorrect answer or other; and afterward I quickly walked over to Ms. Egan and explained the correspondence theory of truth: "The sentence 'snow is white' is true if and only if snow is white"; if you're using a bucket of pebbles to count sheep then an empty bucket is true if and only if the pastures are empty. I don't know if this cured her; I suspect that it didn't. But up until that point, at any rate, it seems Ms. Egan had been so traumatized by this childhood experience that she believed there was no such thing as truth - that because her teacher had demanded a definition in words, and she hadn't been able to give a good definition in words, that no good definition existed.
Of which I usually say: "There was a time when no one could define gravity in exquisitely rigorous detail, but if you walked off a cliff, you would fall."
On the other hand - it is a general and primary principle of rationality that when you have no justification, it is very important that there be some way of saying "Oops", losing hope, and just giving up already. (I really should post, at some point, on how the ability to just give up already is one of the primary distinguishing abilities of a rationalist.) So, really, if you find yourself totally unable to justify something in words, one possibility is that there is no justification. To ignore this and just casually stroll along, would not be a good thing.
And with moral questions, this problem is doubled and squared. For any given person, the meaning of "right" is a huge complicated function, not explicitly believed so much as implicitly embodied. And if we keep asking "Why?", at some point we end up replying "Because that is just what the term 'right', means; there is no pure essence of rightness that you can abstract away from the specific content of your values."
But if you were allowed to answer this in response to any demand for justification, and have the other bow and walk away - well, you would no longer be computing what we know as morality, where 'right' does mean some things and not others.
Not to mention that in questions of public policy, it ought to require some overlap in values to make a law. I do think that human values often overlap enough that different people can legitimately use the same word 'right' to refer to that-which-they-compute. But if someone wants a legal ban on pepperoni pizza because it's inherently wrong, then I may feel impelled to ask, "Why do you think this is part of the overlap in our values?"
Demands for moral justification have their Charybdis and their Scylla:
The traditionally given Charybdis is letting someone say that interracial marriage should be legally banned because it "feels icky" to them. We could call this "the unwisdom of repugnance" - if you can just say "That feels repugnant" and win a case for public intervention, then you lose all the cases of what we now regard as tremendous moral progress, which made someone feel vaguely icky at the time; women's suffrage, divorces, atheists not being burned at the stake. Moral progress - which I currently see as an iterative process of learning new facts, processing new arguments, and becoming more the sort of person you wished you were - demands that people go on thinking about morality, for which purpose it is very useful to have people go on arguing about morality. If saying the word "intuition" is a moral trump card, then people, who, by their natures, are lazy, will just say "intuition!" all the time, believing that no one is allowed to question that or argue with it; and that will be the end of their moral thinking.
And the Scylla, I think, was excellently presented by Silas Barta when... actually this whole comment is just worth quoting directly:
Unfortunately, it does happen to be a fact that most people are not good at explaining themselves in words, unless they've already heard the explanation from someone else. Even if you challenge a professional philosopher who holds a position, to justify it, and they can't... well, frankly, you can't conclude much even from that, in terms of inferring that no good explanation exists. Philosophers, I've observed, are not much good at this sort of job either. It's Bayesian evidence, by the law of conservation of evidence; if a good explanation would be a sign that justification exists, then the absence of such explanation must be evidence that justification does not exist. It's just not very strong evidence, because we don't strongly anticipate that even professional philosophers will be able to put a justification into words, correctly and convincingly, when justification does in fact exist.
Even conditioning on the proposition that there is overlap in what you and others mean by 'right' - the huge function that is what-we-try-to-do - and that the judgment in question is stable when taken to the limits of knowledge, thought, and reflective coherence - well, it's still not sure that you'd be able to put it into words. You might be able to. But you might not.
And we also have to allow a certain probability of convincing-sounding complicated verbal justification, in cases where no justification exists. But then if you use that as an excuse to flush all disliked arguments down the toilet, you shall be left rotting forever in a pit of convenient skepticism, saying, "All that intellekshual stuff could be wrong, after all."
So here are my proposed rules of conduct for arguing morality in words: