An interesting question is, given the general failure of brainwashing, how do new religions manage to take hold, like Christianity, Islam, Mormonism, Sikhism, etc.? How come Christian and Islamic proselytism has been so consistently successful in many parts of the world?
These are good questions, and as you can imagine, much debated in the literature, with explanations ranging from acts of God (the paradigmatic example being the Jew quoted in Acts of the Apostles arguing that Christianity didn't need to be suppressed because if it flourished, it must be favored by God, and it would fail if it was disfavored by him) to enabling effective society coordination (particularly attractive for Islam: the horsebacked nomads managed to coordinate under Mohammed rather than feud, and did as well as the Mongols, with conversion then following from personal advantage and to escape dhimmitude) to arguments that it's just random drift (Carrier points out that the best estimates of the sizes of early Christianity as tiny even centuries after Jesus then necessarily imply that the annual growth rate must have been far tinier than commonly assumed).
My uneducated guess is that it is because Christianity, Islam, Sikhism, Buddhism, and Judaism were all backed by governments and military forces during the initial stages of expansion. I don't believe there are any large religions for which this is not true - Hinduism is too old for us to say much about its origins, but there was a time when Buddhism was becoming extremely popular, and power was involved in re-establishing Hinduism.
If I'm right, then the thing that causes small memeplexes to become big memeplexes is the successful conversion of a few powerful and influential people (and that process happens through random drift in the case of religion)
Also, I think Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are the only religions which care about whether or not you believe them. (As in, members think that belief itself has consequences and so they aught to care what others believe). It's harder to leave these religions, with shadows of hell hanging over you. I think that in most other religions, people can sort of vaguely redirect worship from one set of symbols to another without really rejecting old beliefs and accepting new ones in a way that is consistent with "brainwashing" - ...
Typically, a conversion sticks because an organization provides value to its members.
People do get value from religion. The big two seem to be social conformity and fear of death, but there are others. The only atheist that I personally know who converted to Christianity got a wife out of the deal.
My model of a cult is a mechanism that exploits various flaws in human thinking. For example, peer pressure turned up to eleven: if you leave a cult, you lose all your friends at the same moment. (In real life, one's friends are usually not this coordinated.) The cult keeps you busy with all the cultish stuff, which makes the natural procrastination about important decisions (such as leaving the cult) even stronger. There is the initial "love bombing", which prevents you from estimating how happy you would be if you joined. Etc.
Typically, a conversion sticks because an organization provides value to its members.
Disagree connotationally. (Also I am not sure what "conversion sticks" means precisely. If a person spends 5 or 10 years in a cult and then leaves, do we consider those initial years as a success, because the person did not run away immediately?) Yes, technically, the organization provides something, but if we want to get more specific, it usually provides promises that something very good will happen in the unspecified - but very close - future. It also provides something immediately, for example a social group, but I think those promises are very important for many people. So if we define "value" as promises that sound good but are never fulfilled, then yes, the organization provides the value to its members. But if we define "value" as the thing that was promised, then it does not really provide the value.
Until I read this, I didn't realize there are different possible claims about the dangers of cults. One claim-- the one gwern is debunking-- is that cults are a large-scale danger, and practically anyone can be taken over by a cult.
The other less hyperbolic claim is that cults can seriously screw up people's lives, even if it's a smallish proportion of people. I still think that's true.
This is an excerpt from Valerie Tarico's web series "Christian Belief Through The Lens of Cognitive Science"
...In revival meetings or retreats, semi-hypnotic processes draw a potential convert closer to the toggle point. These include including repetition of words, repetition of rhythms, evocative music, and Barnum statements (messages that seem personal but apply to almost everyone– like horoscopes). Because of the positive energy created by the group, potential converts become unwitting participants in the influence process, actively seeking to make the group’s ideas fit with their own life history and knowledge. Factors that can strengthen the effect include sleep deprivation or isolation from a person’s normal social environment. An example would be a late night campfire gathering with an inspirational story-teller and altar call at Child Evangelism’s “Camp Good News.”
These powerful social experiences culminate in conversion, a peak experience in which the new converts experience a flood of relief. Until that moment they have been consciously or unconsciously at odds with the group center of gravity. Now, they may feel that their darkest secrets are known and fo
Very interesting and surprising. A priori I would have expected the most successful NRMs to be at least 10-20% effective in one-year new member retention. I wonder how non-religious non-mainstream organizations that demand some amount of sacrifice from their members measure up? E.g. what are the retention rates in online forums, gaming communities, fitness centers, etc...?
Cultist, n. One who is obstinately and zealously attached to an opinion that you do not entertain.
(That's actually "bigot" in the Devil's Dictionary, but cultist is a better fit to me.)
Has the rehabilitation of 'cults' begun? "The Cult Deficit", Ross Douthat:
...LIKE most children of the Reagan era, I grew up with a steady diet of media warnings about the perils of religious cults — the gurus who lurked in wait for the unwary and confused, offering absolute certainty with the aftertaste of poisoned Kool-Aid. From the 1970s through the 1990s, from Jonestown to Heaven’s Gate, frightening fringe groups and their charismatic leaders seemed like an essential element of the American religious landscape. Yet we don’t hear nearly as much
My observation about cults, from personal experience leading them, is that they are a totally normal mode of human operation. People are always looking for strong leaders with vision, passion and charisma who can organize them for a larger purpose. What distinguishes a cult from a non-cult is that they are outside the norms of the mainstream society (as established by the dominant cults -- i.e. "the culture"). "Cult", "brainwashing", "deprogramming", etc. are terms of propaganda used by the dominant culture to combat...
Taboo "brainwashing".
What does Christianity, for instance, succeed in doing, if not brainwashing?
It seems to me that it's (sincere) adherents have been persuaded to believe Christianity is the most rational choice. They've been convinced it is the best wager available.
Is it? Is Christianity (or any religion) the best wager? Is it rational?
If not, then what can we say about the mechanism(s) used to get humans to be wholly convinced otherwise? What shall we name it? How does it work?
And how is this yet-nameless, magical process different from brainwashing?
Interestingly connected: "Hatred and Profits: Getting Under the Hood of the Ku Klux Klan", Fryer & Levitt 2007 (excerpts; MR discussion)
...In Jin, Moon and his wife’s fourth child, seemed suited for the task. She had a modern American upbringing and a master’s degree from Harvard. In 2009, she took over the Unification Church of America and introduced a bold modernization program. Her aim, she said, was to transform the church into one that people—especially young people—were “dying to join.” She renamed the church Lovin’ Life Ministries, shelved the old hymn books, and launched a rock band, an offshoot of which played New York clubs under the moniker Sonic Cult. She also discarded the old K
It always seemed obvious to me that cults have rather low conversion rates.
Cults do not optimize for having many members. They optimize for the dedication of the members. This may be because the typical cult leader would rather have 10 people believe that he is the saviour and the messenger of God, than have 1000 people believe that he's merely a good guy.
(I tend to delineate cults/non-cults on the basis of how they resolve this trade-off between extremism and popularity)
Cults do not optimize for having many members. They optimize for the dedication of the members. This may be because the typical cult leader would rather have 10 people believe that he is the saviour and the messenger of God, than have 1000 people believe that he's merely a good guy.
No one in the literature suggests this, and cults (just like mainstream religions such as Mormonism) invest enormous efforts into proselytization, rather than strenuous filtering of existing converts. The efforts just don't succeed, and like the Red Queen, minority religions need to run as fast as they can just to stay in place.
Really? Links? A lot of stuff here is a bit too culty for my tastes, or just embarassing, but "cutting family ties with nonrational family members"?? I haven't been following LW closely for a while now so I may have missed it, but that doesn't sound accurate.
I wonder what percentage of adult North Koreans have been successfully brainwashed by their government to the extent that, say, they believe that their country's founding dictator was one of the greatest forces for good the world has ever known. What's your estimate?
[pollid:553]
In the Korean context, surveys have been done of defectors (for the obvious reasons) to try to gauge the current level of support for the regime. The result is sadly predictable for anyone who's seen Russians nostalgic for Stalin or Chinese wistfully thinking back to Mao: Il-Sung is still venerated by many North Koreans, even if they don't like his son or despise the pig-grandson.
Some survey data is summarized in The Hidden People of North Korea: Everyday Life in the Hermit Kingdom and "An Assessment of the North Korean System's Durability" is an extensive discussion of defector surveys. (Apparently in the 2002 defector survey, 67% of them believed their countrymen venerated Il-Sung as the "greatest mind of humanity". Many interesting bits, like "Few North Koreans seem aware that the United States has been one of North Korea's principal food donors.")
Note that the survey says that they believe that their [i]countrymen[/i] venerated Il-Sung. Defectors may be likely to dislike Il Sung themselves, but my (low certainty) expectation would be that they'd be more likely to see the population at large as slavishly devoted. People who take an unusual stance in a society are quite likely to caricature everyone else's position and increase the contrast with their own. Mind you, they sometimes take the 'silent majority' thing of believing everyone secretly agrees with them: I don't know which would be more likely here.
But I'd guess that defectors would be both be more likely to think everyone else is zealously loyal, AND be more likely to believe that everyone wishes they could overthrow the government. I'd imagine them to be more likely to end up on the extremes, in short.
Not sure what the purpose of this poll is. Brainwashing from birth with little or no exposure to alternative views is a quite different environment from the one NRMs operate in. How many Americans or Greeks (or pre-war Germans) believe that their country is the greatest? How many Russians believed in Communism in 1950s? The numbers are clearly a lot higher than any cult can hope to achieve.
In particular, North Korea clamps heavily down on unauthorized information and makes up a lot of stuff. When your data is bad, it's not too surprising if your conclusions are bad.
Even people who are cynical about the regime probably aren't cynical enough. I forget the book I read this in (The Cleanest Race?) but I recall reading one story about a high-level NK official who was aware of the many abuses, but it wasn't until he learned from the Russian archives that the Korean War had actually been started by Kim Il-Sung after Stalin gave his permission (the official NK version is that the bloodthirsty capitalist SK dictator Syngman Rhee invaded NK unprovoked) that he realized just how far down the rabbit hole he had to go.
about 2/3 of people are more susceptible to authority than the rest
It would seem that one could replace "2/3" with any other proper fraction and that finding would remain true.
I would say demonization and ostracism count as coercion. Religions use sexual identity shaming, existential fears, 'universal morality', and promises of eternal happiness in an 'afterlife' to fallaciously bring followers under bit & bridle. As soon as a religious authority stoops to the "you're being controlled by evil spirits" argument, it counts as brainwashing. Cult authorities will use this to demonize any and all forms of skepticism, sexual relationships, skipping worship sessions, or interaction with ex-members. Essentially, if you dis...
Some old SIAI work of mine. Researching this was very difficult because the relevant religious studies area, while apparently completely repudiating most public beliefs about the subject (eg. the effectiveness of brainwashing, how damaging cults are, how large they are, whether that’s even a meaningful category which can be distinguished from mainstream religions rather than a hidden inference - a claim, I will note, which is much more plausible when you consider how abusive Scientology is to its members as compared to how abusive the Catholic Church has been etc), prefer to publish their research in book form, which makes it very hard to review any of it. Some of the key citation were papers - but the cult panic was so long ago that most of them are not online or have been digitized! I recently added some cites and realized I had not touched the draft in a year; so while this collection of notes is not really up to my preferred standards, I’m simply posting it for what it’s worth. (One lesson to take away from this is that controlling uploaded human brains will not be nearly as simple & easy as applying classic ‘brainwashing’ strategies - because those don’t actually work.)
Reading through the literature and especially the law review articles (courts flirted disconcertingly much with licensing kidnapping and abandoning free speech), I was reminded very heavily - and not in a good way - of the War on Terror.
Old American POW studies:
Started the myth of effective brain-washing. But in practice, cult attrition rates are very high! (As makes sense: if cults did not have high attrition rates, they would long ago have dominated the world due to exponential growth.) This attrition claim is made all over the literature, with some example citations being:
a back of the envelope estimate for Scientology by Steve Plakos in 2000:
Iannaccone 2003, “The Market for Martyrs” (quasi-review)
Singer in particular has been heavily criticized; “Cult/Brainwashing Cases and Freedom of Religion”, Richardson 1991:
“Overcoming The Bondage Of Victimization: A Critical Evaluation of Cult Mind Control Theories”, Bob and Gretchen Passantino Cornerstone Magazine 1994:
Gomes, Unmasking the Cults (Wikipedia quote):
“Psychological Manipulation and Society”, book review of Spying in Guruland: Inside Britain’s Cults, Shaw 1994
Anthony & Robbins 1992, “Law, Social Science and the ‘Brainwashing’ Exception to the First Amendment”:
“Brainwashed! Scholars of cults accuse each other of bad faith”, by Charlotte Allen, Lingua Franca Dec/Jan 1998: