Playing gotcha with with quotes that don't hedge enough on extreme cases of caloric intake doesn't seem like the best way to go about this. Maybe concentrate the critique a little more?
Taubes would agree that someone who is overweight necessarily has consumed more calories than they have burned. He's said so in maybe every interview I've ever heard with him. His claim is that that is epiphenomenal to a metabolic condition that prevents people from using fat as an energy source, which is in turn caused by excess carbohydrate intake.
Is there good reason to think he is wrong about that? Or does mainstream nutrition science agree with that view-- despite what they've recommended to people for the last 30 years?
Playing gotcha with with quotes
Perhaps part of the problem is that it's not 100% clear what Taubes' position is. It's arguably in his financial interest to leave his position ambiguous. There is huge marketing value in giving people permission to pig out; at the same time it's easier to defend his position if he doesn't approve of pigging out.
Yeah, I was trying not to pull you ahead. But dealing with the big picture is more my style.
Taubes certainly does say things that seem to suggest that, but what it would even mean for that to be true?
I think he says it pretty directly actually. Good Calories, Bad Calories:
...When Rony discussed positive energy balance, he compared the situation with what happens in growing children. “The caloric balance is known to be positive in growing children,” he observed. But children do not grow because they eat voraciously; rather, they eat voraciously because they are growing. They require the excess calories to satisfy the requirements of growth; the result is positive energy balance. The growth is induced by hormones and, in particular, by growth hormone. This is the same path of cause and effect that would be taken by anyone who is driven to put on fat by a metabolic or hormonal disorder. The disorder will cause the excess growth—horizontal, in effect, rather than vertical. For every calorie stored as fat or lean tissue, the body will require that an extra calorie either be consumed or conserved. As a result, anyone driven to put on fat by such a metabolic or hormonal defect would be
Warning - for reasons that I haven't quite understood, talking about diet can be almost as bad as politics in its potential for controversy and mind-killing.
As you can see a lot of the comments already consist of people misunderstanding each other. I wonder if you could hedge against that in the future by explicitly stating possible communicational failure modes regarding this topic.
[ I am skinny, so haven't given a lot of processing to these issues, please bear with me. ]
I understand there is a controversy surrounding the "just reduce incoming calories" advice. This is obviously true via physics, but people do not seem to find this a satisfying/effective advice. Is the idea that reducing calorie intake enough for physics to take over from biology is too difficult (e.g. you make yourself sick reducing that much, or it is not possible to use that much willpower consistently, or etc.) (?)
edit : in case it's not obvious, I ...
The purpose of this post confused me. As someone who hasn't read Good Calories, Bad Calories, is this supposed to be a refutation of his central argument? In the intro post, you said the purpose first post will be "to look at what Taubes is proposing as an alternative [to mainstream nutrition]."
That implies that your response to this is meant to be a general refutation of this idea. But, to me your response feels more like a nitpick. Disagreeing on whether eating more fats has few effects on fat accumulation, or absolutely no effect, doesn'...
Maybe I missed it somewhere in the discussion, but: in the model of "calories in, calories out", is it assumed that all excess calories go towards building more weight?
It's a subject where I have a hard time being sane, and I'm not aiming for charitable. It's possible that I should cut people more slack for meaning well, or at least not knowing how much damage they're doing and not wanting to know how much damage they're doing, but it's beyond me at the moment.
People who have cancer are congratulated on losing weight. People in depths of dangerous eating disorders are told how good they look, and the compliments dry up when they get healthier. People who use weight-increasing anti-depressants to not be suicidal are told to give up the drugs.
I grant that it's easier to prove that the culture is insane on the subject than to prove that losing fat isn't a good health strategy.
You haven't addressed the question of how urgent it is for people to lose weight.
"Iterating through strategies" is only a good idea if the strategies are low cost-- and a fair number of them aren't.
I grant that it's easier to prove that the culture is insane on the subject than to prove that losing fat isn't a good health strategy.
The culture is insane on the subject, and losing fat is very good for you. That's what makes it tricky - if you start fighting the cultural insanity and meanness to fat people in a naive way, you wind up with the reversed stupidity that is Healthy At Every Size and This Is Thin Privilege. Personally, the answer for me was to get my life together - I moved across the country away from my parents, moved in with much more emotionally healthy sister, went on a keto diet and lost fifty pounds (5"10' male, ended high school at 160, went from roughly 220 to 170). Getting my shit together happened first - and then the weight loss was almost an afterthought.
You haven't addressed the question of how urgent it is for people to lose weight.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. Fat loss is fine and all, but most people got fat for a reason. I know I did - an extraordinarily stressful college environment combined with social isolation. I could deal with leaving those emotional needs unmet - for a time - if I was meeting at leas...
It's one thing to claim that, all else equal, low-carb diets have advantages over low-fat diets. It's another thing to claim you can eat unlimited amounts of fatty foods without gaining weight.
Allowing something is not the same thing as recommending it. People eat because they are hungry.
If you are writing a diet book than you give the reader heuristics. The diet should be judged by the effect of those heuristics.
I'm interested to read this series of posts.
My current view is that weight loss (or gain) is simply (calories eaten - burned). Period.
There are lots of variables in regard to the psychology of dieting, physiological advantages to consuming certain foods and nutrients & genetic predispostion of metabolism but, at the end of the day, I think dieting and body weight is fundamentally about simple caloric arithmetic and Atkins works through the drastic reduction of the type of calories that make up 40-60% of American diets: carbs.
I'd love to update my view given sufficient evidence.
My current view is that weight loss (or gain) is simply (calories eaten - burned).
This is like saying that the success (or failure) of a product is simply (revenue - cost). Or that the key to winning a sporting contest is to score more points than the other team.
The whole thing confused me, but the edit helps a bit. There is nothing particularly wrong with "Calories in, calories out" it just fails to illuminate anything at all which is why it's a bad response to make to any claim about the effects of diet. It also, as a practical matter leads to people thinking about their size as the result of a system where their best control levers are how much they eat and how much they exercise. If trying to eat less and exercise more is a bad way to try to lose weight then attacking the model as simplistic (despite it being a tautology) seems like a reasonable thing to do. That is-- aside from being uninformative it also seems like it might have counterproductive effects as far as people interpret it as dieting advice.
Previously: Mainstream Nutrition Science on Obesity
Edit: In retrospect, I think it maybe should have combined this post with part 3. Unfortunately, the problem of what to do with existing comments makes that hard to fix now.
Taubes first made a name for himself as a low-carb advocate in 2002 with a New York Times article titled "What if It's All Been a Big Fat Lie?" When I first read this article, I was getting extremely suspicious by the second paragraph (emphasis added):
It's one thing to claim that, all else equal, low-carb diets have advantages over low-fat diets. It's another thing to claim you can eat unlimited amounts of fatty foods without gaining weight.
I'd heard of Atkins before but didn't know much about him. I got curious to know more about the man Taubes was casting as the hero who just may have been "right all along," so I popped over to the Wikipedia article on the diet, which says:
The last sentence of this paragraph is helpfully marked "citation needed," leaving an unresolved conflict between whatever Wikipedia editor wrote the paragraph and what the Atkins folks (at least now) claim. I ordered a used copy of the original 1972 edition of Atkins' book through Amazon, and what I found supports the Wikipedia editor. The folks currently in charge of Atkins Nutritionals are white-washing.
The sensational "truly luxurious food without limit" quote in Taubes' article, for example, can be found on page 15 and comes with no context that would make it more reasonable. In fact, lest anyone misunderstand it, it's followed by a statement that "As long as you don't take in carbohydrates, you can eat any amount of this 'fattening' food and it won't put a single ounce of fat on you." (In the book, this is italicized for emphasis.)
Atkins acknowledged that most of the people who used his diet ended up eating less overall, but claimed that some of his patients had lost significant amounts of weight eating 3,000 calories per day or more. In one case, Atkins claimed, a man had lost fifty pounds on a diet of 5,000 calories per day. He attempted to explain this by invoking the fact that extremely low-carbohydrate diets will cause people to excrete ketones (which Atkins referred to as "incompletely burned calories") in their urine. However, as a statement on the Atkins diet put out by the American Medical Association explains:
As far as I can tell, nobody today defends Atkins' original "ketones in the urine" explanation for how his diet supposedly works. It's not entirely clear to me what was going on with the patients Atkins claimed lost weight on a high-calorie diet, but it wouldn't be surprising if a minority of his patients had simply misjudged their caloric intake. In spite of this, Taubes still appears to want to defend Atkins' most extreme claims about people being able to eat unlimited fat without gaining weight.
This isn't entirely obvious when you read his books Good Calories, Bad Calories or Why We Get Fat, which go for a slightly less sensational presentation than the Times article. Nevertheless, in the epilogue to Good Calories, Bad Calories, he claims that "Dietary fat, whether saturated or not, is not a cause of obesity, heart disease, or any other chronic disease of civilization." There's a sense in which that claim might be somewhat plausible, if he meant that it's total calories, not fat per se, that's the main culprit in all those problems. But Taubes also puts a lot of energy (no pun intended) into attacking the mainstream emphasis on calories.
Why We Get Fat, for example, contains claims such as:
No effect? That's a strong claim. And as we'll see in the next two posts, Taubes' evidence for this claim ends up consisting largely on a series of misrepresentations of mainstream nutrition science, which allow him to present his views as the only alternative once he's knocked down his straw men.