To me it feels like this whole series is simply failing to find a smoking gun of Taubes saying something false, or Taubes implying that the mainstream view is X when it is actually Y, because a bunch of individual papers saying Y does not mean that the mainstream view is not X. On a recent visit to an endocrinologist she still earnestly advised me that I ought to reduce fat in my diet because fat has 9 calories per gram. Recently glancing at a state-government handbook for pregnant women it contained the original food pyramid with half your calories supposed to be for grains (along with a recommendation to get folic acid which didn't distinguish folic acid from folate, no mention of iodine supplementation, and no mention of choline supplementation). This is what Taubes is criticizing and the fact that many experimentalists have found that this is terrible and published papers accordingly is part of his criticism, not a refutation of it; he is, precisely, accusing mainstream dietary science of ignoring its own better knowledge, and continuing to have endocrinologists and government pamphlets earnestly advising people that eating fat makes you fat.
So, I’ve liked this series (and upvoted it), but I’ve had mixed feelings about the most recent post. It feels like this is verging dangerously close to “someone is wrong on the internet” (1) territory.
In particular, something that seems to me like a major failing is that I’m now 4 posts into a series on nutrition and I don’t know the right answer. I don’t even know your best guess as to the right answer. Without an executive summary on “the right answer to nutrition” this series has no actionable take away points. Its clear to me that a lot of research was done to write this series. The series would be more valuable if you shared the fruits of that research.
Actionability aside, not stating a view on what someone ought to conclude makes it hard to see just how wrong Taubes is or isn’t. Will following his advice kill me? (Taubes is a dangerous madman). Will following his advice cause me to gain weight or fail to lose weight? (Someone is wrong on the internet). Is Taubes directionally correct such that following his advice will cause me to lose weight but he overstates his case while taking rhetorical cheap shots at strawmen? (Someone is technically incorrect on the internet).
One other point I should make: this isn't just about "someone" being wrong. It's about an author frequently cited by people in the LessWrong community on an important issue being wrong.
Indeed, I'm not sure I'd know about Taubes at all if not for the LessWrong community.
I've already mentioned Eliezer's "Correct Contrarian Cluster" as an example in another thread, but perhaps it would be helpful to mention other examples:
Taubes is now involved in an initiative with the Arnold Foundation doing randomized nutrition trials. It would be interesting to make predictions about some of those.
If they do stop citing Taubes, I predict they start recommending the Perfect Health Diet. I think the correct response would be to suggest they write a summary, not write a series of articles rebuking the diet, so that we can question them and not the other way around. Make the people with novel advice do most of the work.
In particular, something that seems to me like a major failing is that I’m now 4 posts into a series on nutrition and I don’t know the right answer.
There seems to be pretty strong reason to think the right answer is "we don't know the right answer yet."
Actionability aside, not stating a view on what someone ought to conclude makes it hard to see just how wrong Taubes is or isn’t.
If you check out Guyenet's post (linked here, ChrisHallquist has linked it twice), he leads off with (paraphrased) "carb-free diets have worked for a lot of people, and that's great, but Taubes is wrong about the carbohydrate-insulin-hypothesis."
This article series began because the heuristic of "trust the expert consensus" was called into question, and Taubes came up as an opponent of the nutritional consensus, but it turns out that Taubes is mischaracterizing the expert consensus, even if he's not mischaracterizing the layman consensus (which, as you'd expect for laymen, is pretty bad). So that Taubes gets the expert consensus wrong is relevant to the meta-point of "trust the expert consensus."
I concur with your criticism.
I wish people went to greater lengths in explaining themselves whenever they give contrarian advice here, maybe write a post of their own if the issue is important enough. That would make these kinds of posts obsolete.
Often I see some superficially weird off topic statement with upvotes indicating many people agree, although no actual discussion has taken place here regarding the issue, and I have no idea why I should believe it. Engaging those comments is rarely fruitful, but that could be my bad, and of course I probably make weird statements too, since I have little in common with a typical lesswrongian.
This is such a weird, non-LW-type response compared to what I've become accustomed to.
It seems irrelevant whether or not Atkins "works" if the reason it works has nothing (or little) to do with the reasons being given.
In my experience, the fitness community is full of noise -- people who are sure their fitness plans "work" because "look at the great results!" But their justification is so bad that the advice is essentially meaningless.
Or people will swear that X supplement changed their life because they started taking it and presto! 90 days later they had lost 30 pounds, increased muscle tone, and doubled their energy level! Oh...and by the way, they had also concurrently started eating a clean diet, working out 5 times a week, meditating and sleeping more consistently during that 90 days.
As you said, it is important to figure out why the Atkins diet works (when it does). But simply concluding that it is good to follow Taubes advice since it can't kill you and it seems to work for some people is akin to saying you should give horoscopes a try because they are kinda fun and strangely accurate (when they are). You haven't gotten any closer to an accurate map.
Executive ruling: Series not appropriate for Main.
The main reason is what I feel is low argument quality; secondary reason, repeatedly not upvoted. I suspect that the reason your series is not being upvoted is that the readers agree with me that you've failed to find a smoking gun, and you're writing as if you'd already found a smoking gun. Taking this many posts to get to the main point, when making a point of this overall magnitude/importance/significance even if true, is also not acceptable for Main.
This is a poor analogy, because the fact the importance of calories in weight gain is far less obvious than the importance of people in a room's getting crowded
I agree with this. There is an idea out there that there are people who eat little but become and/or stay fat; and that there are people who eat a lot but stay thin. This is vaguely asserted to be related to peoples' "metabolism." For the most part, this is not so. When such people are scientifically tested, it almost invariably turns out that their perceptions of how much they eat are simply wrong.
By contrast, nobody seriously believes that some rooms are crowded because people appear from out of nowhere.
As with a lot of debates, the actual debate stems in large part from ambiguity over what exactly is being debated.
those involved in obesity research did not fail to grasp the factors that drive hunger and sedentary behavior,
Well that seems to be the crux of the dispute, to the extent that there is a dispute. According to you, there is no mainstream consensus position on what causes some peoples' natural drives to consume too much food. According to Taubes, it's carbohydrates which causes such drives.
it became less and less what view he's attributing to mainstream experts, or what his alternative is supposed to be.
less and less -> less and less clear?
I have no plans of discussing is Taubes claims
discussing is Taubes -> discussing Taubes?
A more sensible approach would've been to emphasize that akrasia is an extremely common problem for humans, and that people who don't suffer from akrasia in regards to diet probably suffer from akrasia about something else. [...]
I have no plans of discussing Taubes claims about carbohydrates having a unique ability to mess up the systems that regulate weight.
Really? Basically you are arguing that you don't want to discuss Taubes central claim and instead argue that it would be helpful to speak about akrasia based on no evidence that doing so is useful?
I...
Could Taubes be using a nonstandard concept of causality? One that excludes the notion of proximal cause?
You quotes from mainstream sources certainly indicate that the nutrition science community is familiar with the diverse factors that can lead to obesity-- but that's not surprising and wouldn't be surprising to Taubes. The issue has never been that the mainstream refuses to recognize that heredity, medications, hormones and altered metabolism can contribute to individuals being overweight. The issue is that these facts contribute almost nothing to the medical and nutrition authorities response to individuals trying to lose weight or to the world's growing...
I now suspect that a significant number of people are having a 'WTF is this and why is it on LW?!' response to these posts because the posts do not immediately seem to be related to LW rationality and do not seem to offer obvious benefits (contrast with Jonah Sinick's post offering tutoring help which got positive comments from people who could immediately benefit). This perhaps motivates William_Quixote's comment on this post (and the upvotes it received); in the absence of an obvious purpose for the posts, it might seem like Someone Is Wrong on The Inter...
Downvoted.
How metabolism works, and how to lose weight in a healthy fashion is a matter of general interest. Whether Gary Taubes mischaracterizes "mainstream diet experts", not so much.
this whole post hinges on how one defines mainstream. I've heard "Eat Less Exercise More" hundreds of times from tons of people. All the time. Taubes is attacking "nutrition experts" and the people who make the food pyramid, not elite obesity researchers.
Once you start veering off into a shitty tangent about meanies maybe you need to reconsider just how much you want to attack Taubes vs how much you want to be useful or informative. This series of articles sucks and you should be ashamed. You're spending your time attributing extrapola...
I've heard "Eat Less Exercise More" hundreds of times from tons of people. All the time.
As I'll discuss in the next post, it's good advice. And contrary to what Taubes wants you to think, perfectly compatible with recognizing that the causes of obesity are complicated.
Taubes is attacking "nutrition experts" and the people who make the food pyramid, not elite obesity researchers.
The views Taubes attributes to "nutrition experts" are not only not the views of elite obesity researchers, they're not the views of the FDA, Surgeon General, or anyone else he attributes them to.
I get that you don't like his popsci "I'm a rebel" style...
It's not his style I don't like. It's the substantive and wildly false claims he's making.
...but that should've taken at most 1 post to say.
Some people take Taubes very seriously as a source of scientific information about nutrition, and unless it were a very long post, those people wouldn't have been satisfied.
As I'll discuss in the next post, it's good advice.
No, it really isn't (for me, at least). When I was limiting my calories and exercising more I was gaining weight, feeling like crap, and was miserable and hungry much of the time.
Now that I stopped trying to keep calories down and eat as much fat as I can handle (about 4/5 of my calories come from fat), I lost 30 lbs from my maximum, feel much better (in addition to having more favorable biomarkers), have significantly improved cognition, and almost never feel miserable because I'm hungry. This is precisely the opposite of the advice I received from virtually all the diet authorities I had encountered like my high school health textbook and doctors.
Now that I stopped trying to keep calories down and eat as much fat as I can handle (about 4/5 of my calories come from fat), I lost 30 lbs from my maximum, feel much better (in addition to having more favorable biomarkers), have significantly improved cognition, and almost never feel miserable because I'm hungry. This is precisely the opposite of the advice I received from virtually all the diet authorities I had encountered like my high school health textbook and doctors.
At what point do we start considering the hypothesis that different people have different things that work for them, and that a diet that is healthy for one person may be terrible or even life-threatening for another person?
So much focus is given on "Dietary advice X is good!" / "Dietary Advice Y is bad!", instead of asking how dietary behavior X interacts with metabolism Y?
I wonder if there's a market for a company that uses blood samples to examine various metabolic markers and meal logs to examine dietary behavior, and then correlate them over time with health markers and use that to craft a personal diet plan?
I just read the book (Why We Get Fat), and yes, he meant what he said when he said that people overeat because they are getting fat.
He explains this pretty clearly, though. He says its true in the same sense that its true that growing children eat more because they are growing. Since their bodies are growing they need more food to supply that, and the kids get hungrier.
In the same way, according to his theory, because a person's body is taking calories and storing them in fat, instead of using them for other tissues and for energy, the person will be hung...
Comparing this map and this map makes me a bit sceptic about Taubes's claims. (I'm looking for a similar map for grain consumption per capita but I'm only finding ones about which grains countries consume.)
EDIT: Oh. Never mind.
EDIT again: No, looks like that map also counts grains fed to livestock.
the mainstream view is that people gain weight when they consume more calories than they burn, but both calorie intake and calorie expenditure are regulated by complicated mechanisms we don't fully understand yet.
How does this square with starches occupying the bottom of the pyramid?
...Yet Taubes goes on at great length about how obesity has other causes beyond simple calorie math as if this were somehow a refutation of mainstream nutrition science. So I'm going to provide a series of quotes from relevant sources to show that the experts are perfectly a
Previously: Mainstream Nutrition Science on Obesity, Atkins Redux, Did the US Government Give Us Absurd Advice About Sugar?
In this post, I'm going to deal with an issue that's central to Gary Taubes' critique of mainstream nutrition science: what causes obesity?
This is a post a post I found exceptionally difficult to write. You see, while his 2002 New York Times article portrays mainstream nutrition science as promoting a simplistic mirror-image of the Atkins diet, his books do manage to talk about the mainstream view that if you consume more calories than you burn you'll gain weight... sort of. As I looked closely at the relevant chapters of those books, it became less and less clear what view he's attributing to mainstream experts, or what his alternative is supposed to be.
Because this discussion may get confusing, I want to start by repeating what I said in my first post: the mainstream view is that people gain weight when they consume more calories than they burn, but both calorie intake and calorie expenditure are regulated by complicated mechanisms we don't fully understand yet.
Yet Taubes goes on at great length about how obesity has other causes beyond simple calorie math as if this were somehow a refutation of mainstream nutrition science. So I'm going to provide a series of quotes from relevant sources to show that the experts are perfectly aware of that fact. All of the following sources are ones Taubes cites as examples of how absurd the views of mainstream nutrition experts supposedly are:
There's also the Handbook of Obesity (whose first edition sadly does not appear to be easily accessible online), which I attempt won't quote from because it devotes dozens of chapters to the etiology of obesity, including chapters titled "The Genetics of Human Obesity," "Behavioral Neuroscience of Obesity," and "Endocrine Determinates of Obesity."
Now what exactly is Taubes' objection to the above statements? It's easy to find answers to this question in his books. It's less easy to reconcile all the different answers with each other. At times, he seems to suggest the above statements are self-contradictory, such as when he gives the following example of an "apparent contradiction" (in Good Calories, Bad Calories on p. 271):
At times like this, Taubes reminds me of the biologists who Ernst Mayr chided in his paper "Cause and Effect in Biology" for failing to realize that biological phenomenon can be cause on multiple levels. Mayr quotes an example:
Just as there's no contradiction between thinking leg growth in tadpoles is controlled by hormones, and thinking this mechanism is an evolutionary adaptation, there's no contradiction between thinking weight gain is the result of consuming more calories than you burn, and also thinking that there are a lot of different factors that influence calorie intake and expenditure.
But maybe Taubes doesn't mean to suggest there's a contradiction there. He goes to great lengths to assure his readers he isn't rejecting the laws of thermodynamics. Furthermore, he doesn't seem interested in claiming any loopholes in the basic calories-in, calories-out math along the lines of Atkins' ketones-in-the-urine hypothesis. Instead, the idea often seems to be that the calories-in, calories-out idea is true but trivial. Why We Get Fat (p. 74) offers this analogy:
This is a poor analogy, because the fact the importance of calories in weight gain is far less obvious than the importance of people in a room's getting crowded. Imagine: what if it had turned out that it's the total mass of your food that matters? Or just the total grams of fat? Or just the total grams of carbs? Or the phlogiston content?
A poorly-chosen analogy, though, is a minor problem compared to the false implication that mainstream that obesity researchers have ignored the factors that influence calorie intake and expenditure. This is a claim that Taubes makes explicit in other cases, for example:
Good Calories, Bad Calories (p. 295):
Why We Get Fat (pp. 80-81):
To which I reply: no, those involved in obesity research did not fail to grasp the factors that drive hunger and sedentary behavior, and there was no unchallenged dogma the causes of obesity can't lie in our bodies. Read your own damn sources, Taubes.
I wish I could end this post there, but there's a complication: what about those statements I talked about in part 2, that it's "not a medical fact" that losing weight requires cutting down on excess calories, and that dietary fat has no effect on fat accumulation in the body? Well, there is an explanation for those statements. It's something Taubes goes on at great length about in Good Calories, Bad Calories, but is perhaps most succinctly expressed in Why We Get Fat (p. 99): "We don't get fat because we overeat; we overeat because we're getting fat."
The part of me that's still trying to figure out how to be charitable to Taubes urges that surely that sentence wasn't meant to be taken too literally. To use Taubes' own analogy of the room getting crowded: it's one thing to say "the room is getting crowded because more people are entering than leaving" is too obvious to mention. It's another thing to say that that claim is false, and on the contrary it's the room getting crowded that's causing people to enter. (There's a sense in which that could be true given the phenomenon of social proof, but then we're talking about a feedback loop, not one-way causation.)
So it's natural to assume Taubes is playing with meaning here a bit, using "getting fat" to refer not to the weight gain itself but a metabolic tendency to get fat, or something like that. Surely he still recognizes that how much we eat still has an effect on our weight, right? On the one hand it seems that he does: he talks about how calorie intake affects calorie expenditure, but he doesn't claim they march so closely in lockstep that it's literally impossible to lose weight by cutting calorie intake. His discussion of low-calorie diets plays up how unpleasant they are, but he does acknowledge people lose weight on them.
On the other hand... Taubes seems really serious about this claim, portraying it as one of the fundamental mistakes of mainstream nutrition experts. From Good Calories, Bad Calories (p. 293):
He even goes so far as to say (in Why We Get Fat, p. 76):
So what's going on here? I think the answer lies Taubes' eagerness to portray mainstream nutrition experts as big meanies who blame fat people for being fat. I've already quoted him as saying that on the mainstream view, being overweight or obese must result from a defect of character. Just to drive the point home, in the same book he later says (p. 84):
So if you hear an advocate of the mainstream view claiming not to be a big meanie, don't believe them!
But this puts Taubes in a bind: now if he says how much we eat has an effect on our weight, he's a big meanie too. It doesn't work for him to say fat people can't help overeating because of something wrong with their metabolism, and this in turn causes them to gain weight, because he's committed himself to the principle that blaming behavior equals blaming a character defect. So instead, we get wild rhetoric about how stupid the experts are with no coherent view underneath it.
A more sensible approach would've been to emphasize that akrasia is an extremely common problem for humans, and that people who don't suffer from akrasia in regards to diet probably suffer from akrasia about something else. But that wouldn't have made for as an exciting of a book. Robin Hanson once commented that "few folks actually care much about the future except as a place to tell morality tales about who today is naughty vs. nice." I suspect this point generalizes. If you want to sell a book, flatter your audience and give them some villains to hate.
I have no plans of discussing Taubes claims about carbohydrates having a unique ability to mess up the systems that regulate weight. For one thing, I don't have anything to add to what others have already said. For another, one thing Taubes is definitely not claiming is, "while obesity researchers have spent a great deal of time studying the mechanisms that regulate weight, they've completely failed to realize how badly carbs screw up these mechanisms."
Instead, he accuses them of ignoring the relevant mechanisms entirely. This claim is so wildly untrue as to be grounds to doubt anything you think you learned from Taubes—indeed, to doubt any ideas you originally got from him even if you thought you later got confirmation for them elsewhere.
Closing thought: it's quite possible for a majority of the experts to be wrong. And I can even imagine finding a case somewhere where a non-expert rationally arrived at the correct answer when 95% of the experts are wrong—though I've been unable to actually find such a case. But when you see someone claiming that the vast majority of the experts have an obviously stupid view that should have earned them a failing grade in high school science, that is a very strong signal that you are dealing with a crackpot.