I get my points across to a theist the same way I get my points across to anyone else:
I get clear in my own head what point I want to get across, and why I want to get it across.
I get clear in my own head why I believe that.
I consider my model of the other person and how they differ from me and whether those differences are relevant to how compelling my reasons are. If the differences aren't relevant, I share my reasons for believing what I believe.
If the differences are relevant, I either explicitly note that ("You'll probably disagree with me about this, because you generally believe X where I believe Y, but I think Z.") if my goal is to let the person know what I think, or I set my own reasons aside if my goal is to convince the person that what I think is true.
If the latter, I try to imagine whether I would believe Z if I believed X, and if so, why I would believe that, and I share those reasons instead. Otherwise, I give up on the point I started out with, which is too many inferential steps away, and either go do something else or I pick some instrumental goal along the way (e.g., decide to convince them of Y).
Worth noting is that at every step along th...
So, here is my question to you all: how do you get your points across to a theist without pushing any of their Berserk Buttons, without coming off as a condescending and dismissive jerk, and without having to shorten all of the freaking Inferential Distance?
As others have pointed out, in this article you are already behaving like a condescending and dismissive jerk. You adduce no facts, just making a rant against an imaginary caricature. This is mind-killer territory. No productive conversation is possible on that basis. Any attempt will lose.
The only way to not come across as a condescending and dismissive jerk is to not be one.
On of the things that irritate them the most is the phrase "God is Dead". A phrase that is obviously meaningless in a literal sense...
What Nietzsche was saying when he said "Gott ist tod!" was not what most people think.
He first made the obvious point that modern science and in particular evolution made God redundant and belief in supernatural beings was not longer credible.
At the time (mid C19) many people had lost their belief in God but continued to act as though nothing had changed. That is, they continued to act as Christians but had no basis for doing so.
Nietzsche's real point was that the non-existence of God is a big deal and that we need to take the implications of this seriously. He was not merely saying what everyone knew (there is no God) but that we need to forge a new morality that is not based on discredited and useless religious ideas.
This idea can be relevant in discussions with theists. Just telling the story of what Nietzsche was saying is very powerful, because it takes as a given that religious belief does not make sense now that Darwin has done away with the argument from design. The discussion can turn to the real question: given no God, what do we do with our lives?
I'll share some thoughts since I've been through a recent deconversion...
As a former theist myself, I have found that the most effective strategy is to argue with them from within their worldview and by their own rules. The reason for this is that they (in my experience) flatly reject any evidence external to their religion.
So, rather than discussing the existence of God, assume God exists and then point out that if God were a human, we'd call his motivations needy and depraved. Rather than bringing up outside savior myths which influenced the gospel writers, assume that the gospel is divinely inspired and then point out that it was divinely inspired in four different (contradictory) ways in the story about Mary visiting Jesus' tomb. There are plenty of these.
In my experience, this method is far more effective than outside evidence, but tends to lead to dismissals of logic itself, which is where I get frustrated. I try to explain that logic is embedded in language and thought, that to dismiss logic uses logic (albeit poorly), but I can't seem to make that point stick.
That's a rather good point. I suppose I assumed that everyone (on some gut level) endorses logic, that it was just my failure to communicate my point clearly, not that they were viewing logic as external in the same way they did the other evidence.
Yet, I don't see where to go from here. Without getting some sort of commitment to logic, anything I say using any methodology can be rejected for no reason.
Perhaps I ought to use scriptures to show that God endorses logic? Hmm. What a twisted path that is.
On of the things that irritate them the most is the phrase "God is Dead".
What the? You say that to religious people? How rude. I would be offended if was in mixed company and you said that to a religious believer without some rather significant provocation.
bypassing their knee-jerk defences...
Try not hitting people just below the knee with a hammer with the intention of provoking a response.
Developing a general algorithm would help us spread our ideals further
One option is to make a concerted effort to signal dissafilliation with those atheists who act like obnoxious fundamentalists.
Whereas I, as someone who isn't 'a Troper' find the use of one set of insular jargon on this site frustrating enough without introducing a second set from a totally unrelated website. If the goal is comprehensibility, the use of unfamiliar or niche terms should be kept to a minimum, not encouraged.
I guess, if you had a theist friend whose quality of life you think would be improved by greater rationality, the way to do it would be to talk about general rationality (The Simple Truth, Bayes, Occam, etc), then move on to reductionism, and once they'd accepted and understood all that, and seemed to think of rationality as a good thing, to point out cautiously the implications for the existence of God.
Essentially, shorten the inferential distance, preferably before they know you're an atheist. Then when they think of you as a sane person, and think of th...
How do I get my points across to a theist? Well, I don't. You'll never change anyone's mind by "convincing" them unless they're already a very good rationalist, and even then, it's not really guaranteed to work.
"Convincing" is more often about signaling, whether to yourself or people besides the one you're trying to convince. If your goal is to change someone's mind, try to make them think they already agree with you. I'm not aware of an effective way to do this for theists or "spiritual" people or new-agers or anyone else in that category.
This is the first time I've ever written an article that got shot down so violently. I'll admit it is poorly planned and kind of chaotic, but I feel I was misunderstood. While freeing people from religion is a cause I endorse, especially for those that suffer guilt, anguish and pain because of it, rather than those who derive happiness from it, this is not what I am looking for here. What I want to do is to express my points to religious people without coming off as a condescending jerkass Straw Vulcan. And, revently, I have found myself unable to. Despite...
Three reasons I downvoted:
Hope that helps.
So, suggestions...
(Seriously) Become more attractive. You can't do much about height and not too much about facial symmetry either but if you gain a lot of social status and dress well you will find yourself much more persuasive. If you want to take it to the next level try seducing believers of the preferred gender.
I don't try to convert theists to atheism, and I don't have trouble with "reasonable" theists. If we get into a discussion of religion, then I explain what I do (and don't) believe and why, and they come away with a better understanding of atheism (or at least of me).
It also helps that I'm familiar with a variety of religions (not just Christianity, but different types of Christianity, as well as non-Christian religions of course), so I can get a good idea of where they're coming from. But it's important not to presume, or even to let them think that you're presuming, too much.
Don't you see that by trying to convert people you are in fact acting precisely like the 'new atheist' types that they dislike? Why, precisely, do you want to convert them anyway? Have you considered going door-to-door saying "Have you heard the bad news?"? Theists compare Dawkins et al to fundamentalists because both groups are more interested in winning converts than having a conversation. When discussing religion with a theist - just like when discussing politics with someone of opposite views - far better to go in asking them, with honest cur...
So, here is my question to you all: how do you get your points across to a theist without pushing any of their Berserk Buttons, without coming off as a condescending and dismissive jerk, and without having to shorten all of the freaking Inferential Distance?
If I was trying to get my points across to a theist and they didn't show any sign of being offended, I would conclude that I was failing to get my points across, because the main point is that their beliefs and the way they arrived at them are completely insane.
That's OK though, people can still be c...
I have noticed during my dialectic adventures on the Grid that religious people, no matter how "reasonable" (i.e. moderate, unaggressive, unassuming, gentle, etc.), would get very annoyed by an assertive, dry Atheist perspective, which they tend to nickname Hollywood Atheist (interestingly, religious people tend to use this term to atheists that openly make fun of religion and are very assertive and even preachy about their disbelief, while atheists tend to use it to mean people who are atheists for shallow, weak reasons and who do a poor job of defending their stance in an argument). There is also the tendency to compare the certainty of an Atheist with that of a Fundamentalists, when they are fundamentally different in nature (pun unintended), something they do not seem to be able or willing to grasp. Not that atheism hasn't had its fair share of fundamentalists, but that's supposedly the difference between an atheist who is so out of rationalism and one that is so because they hate the Church or because Stalin (glorified be his name) told them to.
On of the things that irritate them the most is the phrase "God is Dead". A phrase that is obviously meaningless in a literal sense (although, of course, God was never a living being in the first place, by the current definition). Figuratively, it means something akin to "Our Father is dead": we are now orphans, adults, we don't need a God to tell us what to do, or what to want, or how to see the world: we decide for ourselves, we see for ourselves, we are now free... but it does feel a bit lonely, and, for those who relied on their God or Parent Figure as a crutch, it can be hard to adapt to a world without a reference, without an authority figure. A world where you are the reference, you are responsible for your own moral choices.
There are other things, specific arguments, methods of approach, that anger them and are counterproductive to the submitting of the message. Of course, the atheist message is a Brown Note of sorts to the religious mind, since it challenges their entire worldview (though in the end it all adds up to normality... except much more seamlessly). However, it would be nice to develop an approach towards theists that avoids the frontal part of their mental shields and gets into the seams, using the minimal force in the points of maximum efficiency, bypassing their knee-jerk defences...
So, here is my question to you all: how do you get your points across to a theist without pushing any of their Berserk Buttons, without coming off as a condescending and dismissive jerk, and without having to shorten all of the freaking Inferential Distance?
Developing a general algorithm would help us spread our ideals further, which, as far as I know, we think will be to the benefit of all humanity and might in fact help us avoid extinction. So, suggestions...