I have been following this series with muted interest. While I am very interested in nutrition and have done much reading on the topic, I'm not a huge fan of Taubes', in spite of that fact that I think low-carb dieting actually is superior for most people and that many of the points he makes about the conventional wisdom are correct. I think this is the first article in the series that appeals to me at all, with its greater focus on the actual available state of our knowledge and a lesser focus on Taubes specifically.
One element which I think is somewhat misleading is the seeming equivalence you are drawing between low-carb and low-fat diets. While you note that low-carb diets have higher prevalence of side effects, they also show statistically significant benefits in areas other than weight loss, including relative improvements in blood pressure, triglycerides, HDL cholesterol, and insulin sensitivity. Notably, in 6 month and longer studies low-carb had better attrition rates, which is the key to the long-term weight loss conundrum if you are making decisions for yourself (source). I recognize that it is rude to say so, but I can't help but suspect that your moral position with re...
Gastric bypass isn't just drastic, it can be deadly or have major life-altering side effects. Weight regain isn't all that rare, either. First reasonable-looking study on the subject that I found.
I haven't seen anything I'd call a rational look at the risk/reward for bariatric surgery, though maybe I haven't been looking in the right places. The world seems to be split between fat acceptance advocates who don't want to hear success stories and will tell you a tremendous amount about the disasters (which definitely do exist) and the people who say they know a moderate number of people in their social circle who are doing well after the surgery. I do run into people who know someone who ended up dead, but that's rare.
You can use Google Docs to create an anonymous feedback form, but I don't know the details of setting it up; I just know that Luke has one.
It occurs to me that there are two separate questions:
Do low carb diets work better than other diets?
Do low carb diets work at all?
Even if the answer to the first question is "yes," the answer to the second question is clearly "no." In the sense that the vast majority of people end up regaining weight regardless of the diet they are on.
That's a big problem for Taubes' nutritionistic theory. Let's assume for the moment that Taubes is correct, that if you simply eliminate "refined carbohydrates" (whatever that means) fr...
I don't think you are being fair minded at all here.
Consider your claim that Taubes "hailed" the 2010 study with the reality
“The biggest study so far on lowcarb diets came out last year. It compared a low-fat diet in which you got Not everyone gets fat from eating carbs, and getting rid of carbs might not make you lean. But it will make you the leanest you can be. 118 r e a d e r s d i g e s t . c o m 2 / 1 1 1,200 to 1,800 calories per day with a low-carbohydrate diet where you could eat as much as you wanted. The researchers kind of burie...
I have ethical qualms about consuming animal products, including and in fact especially eggs,
The chart that this sentence links to assumes that all animal lives are equal. But that seems untenable. We already value, say, primate, dolphin, and elephant life more than most other mammals, and birds and mammals more than insects, so why should we value cows and chickens equally? Cows have demonstrated problem-solving abilities, and in some cases appear to understand that they are headed for the slaughter. Chickens, on the other hand, can lose most of their brain and still behave more-or-less the same as they did when whole.
Figure 2, included from the 2008 Israeli study is very interesting. Why do all three diets show a reverse in weight loss at 5 months? (It must be a coincidence that it is at five months for all three groups, perhaps the true number would vary for the diets and be at 5 plus or minus 2, especially for the Mediterranean diet which reverses again at month 8.) But generally weight loss occurs for a handful of months and then reverses.
Maybe this is part of weight loss dynamics. A person loses some weight, and then there is a restorative force to put the weight...
But there are other issues here, the big meta-issue being that downvotes don't help me distinguish between people thinking the posts were completely off-topic for Lesswrong vs. not liking how finely they were broken up vs. me not realizing what a hot-button issue obesity is for some people vs. other things. So suggestions on how I could best solicit anonymous feedback would be especially appreciated.
Just start a comment with an anonymous poll.
On the point that "Taubes' rhetorical tactics can be used for much more dangerous ends".
"Just imagine: 'It's doctors and pharmaceutical companies that caused your cancer in the first place. That chemotherapy and radiation therapy stuff they're pushing on you is obviously harmful. Don't you now there are all-natural ways you can cure your cancer?'"
Are you criticizing Taubes method on the fact that it could be theoretically used for more evil purposes? I think that is like criticizing dynamite or nuclear power because it can be used in ...
To recap: so taking in more calories than you burn will cause you to gain weight,
Consider the sentence: "eating more mass then you excrete (plus the extra carbon you exhale) will cause you to gain weight". It is equally (in fact probably more) true. Do you think it's helpful? Taubes's point is that your version is equally unhelpful.
To recap: so taking in more calories than you burn will cause you to gain weight, though calorie intake and expenditure are in turn controlled by a number of mechanisms.
Wrong. If I have diarrhea I lose weight, even through I don't burn more calories. Burning isn't the only way calories can leave the body.
It's an effect that much easier to see in my own weight data than adding 800 kcal per day in maltrodoxin into my tea.
...We may not be able to conclude anything more from the NWCR data than that a significant minority of dieters do succeed at long-term
Furthermore, if you believe the rule about weight lost to dieting coming back in five years, it seems likely that would happen to both groups. Intriguingly, though, while participants on the Mediterranean diet didn't initially lose as much weight as those on the low-carb diet, the weight regain didn't seem to happen as much on the Mediterranean diet. That makes me wonder what a five-year study of the Mediterranean diet would find.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_diet#Medical_research (doesn't mention long-term effect on weight, but only on di...
But there are other issues here, the big meta-issue being that downvotes don't help me distinguish between people thinking the posts were completely off-topic for Lesswrong vs. not liking how finely they were broken up vs. me not realizing what a hot-button issue obesity is for some people vs. other things.
I find it interesting that you refused to mention the possibility of people finding your argument essentially fallacious, despite both myself and Eliezer mentioning this in our replies to your last post, specifically here, here, here, here, here, and ...
Previously: Mainstream Nutrition Science on Obesity, Atkins Redux, Did the US Government Give Us Absurd Advice About Sugar?, What Causes Obesity?
If you've been wondering what these posts are doing on LessWrong and you haven't read this comment yet, I urge you to do so. Thanks to commenter FiftyTwo for suggesting I say something like this.
To recap: so taking in more calories than you burn will cause you to gain weight, though calorie intake and expenditure are in turn controlled by a number of mechanisms. This suggests a couple of options for losing weight. You can try to intervene directly in the mechanisms controlling food intake, one of the most well-known examples of this being gastric bypass surgery, admittedly a bit of a drastic option. But intervening at the point of calorie intake is also an option.
Now it turns out that it's relatively easy to lose weight by dieting. That catch is that it's much harder to keep the weight off. A commonly cited rule (for example here) is that most people who lose weight through dieting will regain it all in five years. However, it's important to emphasize that some people do lose weight through dieting and keep it off long-term. An organization called the National Weight Control Registry has made an effort to track those people, and have published quite a few studies based on their work (many of which can be easily found through Google Scholar).
Unfortunately, the NWCR is working with a self-selected sample and asking them what they did after the fact. They're not randomly assigning people to treatments. So for example, a high percentage of the NWCR group reports successful long-term weight loss following low-fat and/or calorie-restricted diets and exercising a lot. And the percentage following low-carb diets was originally small, but it's risen over time. But both of these observations may just reflect the relative popularity of those approaches in the general population.
We may not be able to conclude anything more from the NWCR data than that a significant minority of dieters do succeed at long-term weight loss, some through calorie-restricted diets, some through low-fat diets, and some through low-carb diets. Remember, though, that as discussed in previous posts there's little reason to think low-fat or low-carb diets could cause weight loss except by indirectly affecting energy balance.
And now, one last time, I'm going to talk about what Taubes has to say about this issue. I'm going to quote from Why We Get Fat (pp. 36-38), though Good Calories, Bad Calories contains similar comments, including about the Handbook of Obesity and Joslin's. Taubes begins by citing a review article covering calorie-restricted diets that found that "Typically, nine or ten pounds are lost in the first six months. After a year, much of what was lost has been regained." He also cites a large study that tested a calorie-restricted diet and reached a similar conclusion: participants "lost on average, only nine pounds. And once again... most of the nine pounds came off in the first six months, and most of the participants were gaining weight back after a year."
Based on this, he concludes that "Eating less—that is, undereating—simply doesn't work for more than a few months, if that." Then it's time to really lay in to mainstream nutrition science:
But look at the actual sources and it turns out that, surprise surprise, mainstream experts aren't idiots after all. The second quote from the Handbook of Obesity comes from a paragraph explaining that given how hard obesity is to treat, doctors face a "Shakespearean" dilemma of whether to attempt to treat it at all. The Joslin's article is even clearer (p. 541, emphasis added):
Suppose for a moment that this is true, that long-term weight loss is rare regardless of the approach. If it is, no "cognitive dissonance" is required to recommend treatments that sometimes work. Furthermore, Taubes commits a serious misrepresentation here. Taubes final quote from the Joslin's article, in context, says that, "There are also many programs that recommend specific food combinations or unusual sequences for eating, but none of these approaches has any proven merit." It's pretty obvious in context that the bit Taubes quotes refers only to the programs that recommend specific food combinations or unusual sequences for eating."
It's also worth mentioning that neither of these sources ignore the debate over low-carb diets. The Handbook of Obesity criticizes Atkins-style low carb diets at some length, but also says that, "Moderate restriction of carbohydrates may have real calorie-reducing properties." And the Joslin's article ends up being fairly positive towards low-carb diets in general (p. 542):
I assume the author of the Joslin's article would say, however, that low-carb diets haven't been shown to completely solve the problem of long-term weight loss being really hard. But would they be right about that?
To the best of my knowledge, there have been only two randomized, controlled trials of low-carb diets that have covered a period of two years (and none covering a longer period than that). Taubes has cited both in support of his claims. The first, an Israeli study published in 2008, also also included a group assigned to a Mediterranean diet. Here are the results in terms of weight loss:
So on the one hand, subjects on the low-carb diet did initially lose more weight, about 6.5 kg (14 lbs.) compared to about 4.5 kg (10 lbs.) for the low-calorie diet. On the other hand, both groups started regaining the weight after six months. If, as Taubes claims, data like this shows that low-calorie diets "simply doesn't work for more than a few months," does this data justify saying the same thing about low-carb diets?
Furthermore, if you believe the rule about weight lost to dieting coming back in five years, it seems likely that would happen to both groups. Intriguingly, though, while participants on the Mediterranean diet didn't initially lose as much weight as those on the low-carb diet, the weight regain didn't seem to happen as much on the Mediterranean diet. That makes me wonder what a five-year study of the Mediterranean diet would find.
Note that the Israeli study also found that that participants in all three groups significantly reduced their caloric intake, supporting the hypothesis that even diets that don't explicitly restrict calorie intake work by reducing calorie intake indirectly.
What about the other study, published in 2010, which Taubes has hailed as "the biggest study so far on low-carb diets"? Here are its results (note that the low-fat diet was also a calorie-restricted diet):
That's right, this study found no statistically significant difference between low-fat and low-carb diets in terms of weight loss, and again show the typical pattern of people losing weight in the first six months and then slowly gaining it back. Together, these two studies support the picture painted by Joslin's: low-carb diets may work somewhat better for weight loss, but they don't appear to solve the problem of long-term weight loss being really hard.
One other relevant detail: the second study found that "A significantly greater percentage of participants who consumed the low-carbohydrate than the low-fat diet reported bad breath, hair loss, constipation, and dry mouth." As Taubes' fellow science writer John Horgan has noted, this reveals an apparent inconsistency in how Taubes judges different diets. He goes to great lengths to play up the unpleasantness of calorie-restricted diets, but tells his readers that if they just stick to their low-carb diet theunpleasant side-effects will go away eventually.
So given all this, what should you do if you want to lose weight? I think depends a lot on who you are. I have ethical qualms about consuming animal products, including and in fact especially eggs, which is one strike against low-carb diets for me. Also, while there's some evidence low-carb diets may be better for hunger, my personal experience is that what foods I find filling is kind of random (lentils, black beans, and baguettes all rate highly on the filling-ness measure for me). So maybe just experiment and try to figure out which foods let you personally eat in moderation and not feel hungry. Keep Eliezer's advice in Beware of Other Optimizing in mind, and if one thing doesn't work for you, try something else.
A final point: the truth about weight loss sucks. If your case isn't bad enough to justify something drastic like gastric bypass surgery, your main option is diets which sometimes work but usually don't. Regardless of the approach. Unfortunately, this is not an exciting message to put in a popular book on nutrition. This creates an excellent opportunity for someone like Taubes: imply that if the experts admit they don't have a great solution to the problem, then clearly they don't know what they're talking about, and therefore your solution is sure to work!
Long-time readers of LessWrong, however, will realize that the universe is allowed to throw us problems with no good solution. That's something that may be especially worth keeping in mind when evaluating claims in the vicinity of medicine and nutrition. In a way, Taubes' readers are lucky: following his advice won't kill you, and won't lead to you missing out on any wildly more effective solution. It might have some unpleasant side-effects you could've avoided with another approach, but also might have some advantages. However, I've read enough of the literature on medical quackery to know Taubes' rhetorical tactics can be used for much more dangerous ends.
Just imagine: "It's doctors and pharmaceutical companies that caused your cancer in the first place. That chemotherapy and radiation therapy stuff they're pushing on you is obviously harmful. Don't you now there are all-natural ways you can cure your cancer?" If someone says that to you, then knowing that the universe is unfair, and that sometimes the best solution it gives you to a problem will have serious downsides, well knowing that just might save your life. Or not. Because the universe isn't fair.
Early on in the process of writing this series, I said when it was over with I'd do a post-mortem to look at how I could have broken it up better. However, Vaniver has given me what seems like good advice on that issue, which I plan to follow in the future. (Unless someone else comes along and persuades me otherwise. You're welcome to try that).
But there are other issues here, the big meta-issue being that downvotes don't help me distinguish between people thinking the posts were completely off-topic for Lesswrong vs. not liking how finely they were broken up vs. me not realizing what a hot-button issue obesity is for some people vs. other things. So suggestions on how I could best solicit anonymous feedback would be especially appreciated.