Seconded.
On the whole, this account reads to me like “what to do if you want to commit suicide while also continuing to infect hapless others with the idea that they, too, should commit this form of suicide”. That is really what struck me about this particular “enlightenment” story: the whole business seems like a destructive meme.
Hard determinism can also have a demoralising effect. People keep saying "determinism doesn't imply fatalism", other people keep getting demoralised.
I agree it can be seen as a destructive meme. At the same time, I wonder why it has spread so little. Maybe because it doesn't have a very evangelical property. People who become infected with it might not have much of a desire to pass it on to others.
Jed talks about how you need to "empty somebody out" before they can be "filled back in".
Run, do not walk, away from this person.
It reminds me of "jailbreaking", as advocated and practiced by certain prominent members of the rationalist community.
Or that part in "The Matrix" when Agent Smith copies himself into all the other occupants of the Matrix. His purpose has become to tile the future lightcone with copies of himself, which I believe was also a central tenet of Zizism.
What do we want to tile the future lightcone with?
Hi Richard!
I've listened to this book's audio version a several times in the past few years. I finished it for the fourth time yesterday.
I can't help but find the book's claims convincing, and I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on them.
To support your point: Yes, the book might be dangerous.
Last year, the book's ideas threw me into a senseless circle of nihilistic ruminations. I had chosen to listen to it again (3rd time) at a bad time, two months into a later diagnosed adjustment disorder. It got better after about two more months, due to the betterment of external circumstances. I never considered suicide, but I did warily consider trying "spiritual autolysis".
To disagree with your point: I believe the book to also hold the potential to improve the lives of those who read it. To even value life more than before.
Let me quote a passage from the book, part of which is quoted in this post's section VII:
"I think the bubble [the illusion of reality] is a magnificent amusement part, and leaving it is a damn silly thing to do unless you absolutely must. I would advise anyone who didn't absolutely have to leave to just head back in and enjoy it while it lasts."
At one other point, the author also states something along those lines:
"If anything, I'm the one missing out. I can't regain the belief that anything matters."
I see a huge difference in what I grasp of "jailbreaking", and this book's claims. The author doesn't call anything corrupt. On the contrary, he states that "It's all good".
Despite my rough phase last year, I have a lot of admiration for this book.
However, I feel like I might be naive in some ways, too easily convinceable.
If you will, please tell me your thoughts about all of that, and the red flags you're seeing.
Also, this is my first comment on this platform, so please tell me about any conventions I disregarded :)
Hello, and welcome!
McKenna's shtick comes preloaded with fully general and condescending answers to all objections: it's your "semantic stopsigns" getting in the way, your fear of realising that nothing is true, all is a lie, and if you would just blow your brains out like he has you'd see it. He'll give you the gun to do it with and when you decline he'll smug at you saying fine, stick with your life of comfortable ignorance.
I'm willing to believe he's honestly trying to describe his experiences. But by his own descriptions, whatever it is that he has, it is something I have not the slightest interest in, for all that he calls it "enlightenment". Of course he has a self-justifying interpretation to put on that, but I do not care about what he would think of me. Neither will I play the game of But Suppose, which is just another Fully General Response. "But suppose he's right! Then he'd be right! So he could be right!" There are decisions to be made here. I have made mine, supposing is at an end, and I leave him by the door wherein I went.
He says:
I play video games, read books, watch movies. I'd say I probably blow several hours a day that way, but I don't see it as a waste because I don't have anything better to spend my time on. I couldn't put it to better use because I'm not trying to become something or accomplish anything. I have no dissatisfaction to drive me, no ambition to draw me. I've done what I came to do. I'm just killing time 'til time kills me.
Is this who you want to be? That's what he's offering. No thanks. I am left speculating on why anyone would take him up on the offer.
A couple of months ago I was at the Early Music Festival in Utrecht, ten full days of great music at least 400 years old played by some of the top people in the world. Five minutes of that was worth more to me than all of Jed McKenna's burnt-out ramblings.
His "shtick" (why the dramatic approach?) is that if we try to disprove everything, without giving up, every false belief will eventually be dealt with, and nothing true will be affected. Is there some fault with that or not?
In regards to enlightenment, he uses a specific definition, and it's not something that can be decided by arguing. You either satisfy the definition or you don't. Nobody has asked you to care about it, so you needn't justify your decisions if you don't.
If you think he is offering something like "how to play video games all day," you have misunderstood him quite significantly, and I'd suggest not misrepresenting him, at least not here on LessWrong.
His "shtick" (why the dramatic approach?) is that if we try to disprove everything, without giving up, every false belief will eventually be dealt with, and nothing true will be affected. Is there some fault with that or not?
He says that "nothing true will perish" but also that there is no truth. Either he or the OP dismisses everything that people have discovered about the world as mere "semantic stopsigns", which looks pretty much like a semantic stopsign itself. There is nothing here and no amount of hermeneutics will magic it into something.
If you think he is offering something like "how to play video games all day," you have misunderstood him quite significantly, and I'd suggest not misrepresenting him, at least not here on LessWrong.
I quoted his actual words, to the effect that he does nothing and everything remains undone. I am not going to search out any other reading of these words than what they say on their face. If that is a misrepresentation, he is misrepresenting himself.
Could you point to where he claims there is no truth? What I've seen him say is along the lines of "no belief is true" and "nobody will write down the truth." That should not be surprising to anyone who groks falsification. (For those who do not, the LessWrong article on why 0 and 1 are not probabilities is a place to start.)
He is describing what he's up to. You say that's what he's offering. So you already are searching out other readings. Have you heard of taking things out of context? The reason that is frowned upon is because dogmatically just reading a piece of text is a reliable way to draw bad conclusions.
Could you point to where he claims there is no truth?
The OP says:
Jed says that after going through this process long enough, you will wind up with the answer that there is no truth.
and
In some sense the rationality community is clinging on to the semantic stopsign of bayes rule and empiricism, while Jed lights even those on fire and declares truth as non-existent.
So if you disagree with that reading, your argument is with the OP.
If we’re going to duel with Eliezer posts, see also The Simple Truth.
Here are a few of my beliefs (although not my own words):
“I think I exist. I am conscious of my own identity. I was born and I shall die. I have arms and legs. I occupy a particular point in space. No other solid object can occupy the same point simultaneously.”
I do not expect to update any of these, and certainly not from sitting with my eyes closed “questioning” them.
But perhaps whatever Jed means can only be learned by going on a month-long retreat with him?
I looked briefly into Ziz. My conclusion is that she had some interesting ideas I hadn't heard before, and some completely ridiculous ideas. I couldn't find her definition of "good" or "bad" or the idea of tiling the future lightcone with copies of herself.
Thanks for reminding me about that scene from the Matrix. Gave it a look on YouTube. Awesome movie.
I'm wondering, how do you look at the question of what we want to tile the future lightcone with?
Hey thanks for the link Richard that was an interesting read. There definitely seems to be some similarities.
I was actually thinking about what we want to tile the future lightcone with the other day. This was the progression I saw:
Utilitarianism V has some similarities to tiling the future lightcone with copies of yourself which can then execute based on their updated preferences in the future.
But "yourself" is really just a collection of memes. It will be the memes that are propagating themselves like a virus. There's no real coherent persistent definition of "yourself".
What do you want to tile the future lightcone with?
I'm curious what your guys thoughts are!
He sounds like someone who learned to think for himself, at the price of living a life like Diogenes. And that inner freedom is so important to him, that everything else comes second. He wrote a few books, but didn't try too hard to be a guru. He's rather live as a slacker, rather than risk losing sight of truth.
He's like a wise kindly hobo. He may offer perspective to the people who happen to run into him, but in important ways he has retired from the arena of life. He's not being a leader or assisting someone who is a leader. There are probably many many more people like him than you realize.
Disclaimer: I've never heard of him before, I know nothing about his actual circumstances, I'm just sharing the picture I got of him.
You're assessment seems very accurate!
It didn't occur to me that there are probably many more people like him than I realize. I'm not sure I've met any. Have you?
I've met at least one person who was just giving away their independent writings on the nature of enlightenment.
You might also want to look at "Meaningness", which has been influential among "post-rationalists".
I took a look at meaningness a few months ago but couldn't really get into it. It felt a bit too far from rationality and very hand wavy.
Did you find Meaningness valuable? I may take another look
Meaningness is a great example of the art of deferral. Chapman promises much, but always there are preliminaries he has to explain first, and preliminaries to those preliminaries, and the promised meat course never shows up. I have to wonder if the endless hors d'oeuvres and pre-banquet entertainments are the whole of it, and the promises are just the carrot on the stick, jam tomorrow to get people to keep reading.
I have found him illuminating on the history of Buddhism and meditation.
Yea I like the way you describe it.
I'll check out his writings on the history of Buddhism and meditation, thanks.
I think Meaningness has some interesting discussion on what "post-modernity" can mean in terms of epistemology and (scientific) thinking https://metarationality.com/stem-fluidity-bridge
I think he writes well (unlike OP, sorry :D) and gets to his point with relatively little text. I think his STEM-fluidity-postmodernism idea is on the more useful side, out of those I've seen in the whole rationality scene.
Here are examples of things that you can't really know to be true: [...] That you will wake up tomorrow
At certain age you don't need spirituality to realize this.
I think Jed takes it one step further than the rationalists. In some sense the rationality community is clinging on to the semantic stopsign of bayes rule and empiricism, while Jed lights even those on fire and declares truth as non-existent.
Well, yeah. Rationalists strive to separate true from false. Jed strives to declare everything as false.
Then again, he seems happy, and it is not obvious that a parallel reality without "enlightenment" would be better.
Lots of personality traits seem to stick around. If he's weirdly nihilistic after awakening the simplest explanation is that he was weirdly nihilistic before awakening and it just altered the flavor slightly.
But how can we do anything until that most fundamental of all questions is answered?
Meaning is backwards facing, temporally. You don't say you need to understand the meaning of a movie before you watch it. More broadly, I don't trust meditation teachers that don't do stack traces of mental processes, since they're exactly the people who are supposed to be good at that.
The enlightened have awakened from the dream and no longer mistake it for reality. Naturally, they are no longer able to attach importance to anything. To the awakened mind the end of the world is no more or less momentous than the snapping of a twig.
Looks like I'll have to avoid enlightenment, at least until the work is done.
I. Overview
"Spiritual Enlightenment: The Damnedest Thing" is the first in a three part Spiritual Enlightenment series by Jed McKenna.
It's quite unlike any other book I've read before. I came across it as it was recommended by a friend and appears on Naval's recommended reading list. This review can't do it justice, so I recommend picking up a copy for yourself. That being said, on with the review.
The premise of the book is to help you understand what it's like to live life as an "enlightened" person and offer some advice for getting there if you so desire. The person in this case is Jed McKenna, the author of the book. It is written in a secular and no BS style which makes it a fun read.
Here are some of the ways he describes enlightenment:
II. On Becoming Enlightened
As far as becoming enlightened goes, his suggestion is to apply a technique called Spiritual Autolysis.
All you have to do is write down what you know is true, or what you think is true, and keep writing until you've come up with something that is true. While it sounds pretty friendly at first, Jed describes it as a painful process:
The thinking is that by actually questioning the truth, you will start to realize that most of what you believed to be true is actually false. And this can very quite painful.
Jed says that after going through this process long enough, you will wind up with the answer that there is no truth. But Jed emphasizes that being told the answer is very different from computing it yourself. Only in the latter case will you actually experience a change in the way you perceive the world.
Here are examples of things that you can't really know to be true:
While many of these examples are ideas that people will have considered, most people haven't taken seriously the possibility of them being false. The typical reaction is to see one of these ideas and dismiss the possibility of their being false as silly, ridiculous, or impossible.
A powerful idea is that of Descrate's Evil Demon:
To reiterate: for all you know you are in a dream and nothing that you believe to exist actually exists. What if it's the case that every good thing you perceive yourself as doing is actually something bad at the base layer of reality? How can you possibly exclude this possibility? (Fun fact about Descartes is that even after presenting this idea he claimed the ability to prove the existence of god.)
Overall, this way of seeing the world resembles Pyrrhonian skepticism. Just because something is the type of thing which gets remembered as true does not make it true.
One thing Jed emphasizes is that you can't rely on a teacher to hold your hand the entire way. You've got to find your way on your own with purity of intent. Society is designed such that the passive action is that of the blue pill. If you want the red pill, you're going to have to actively seek it out yourself.
III. "Emptying Somebody Out"
Jed talks about how you need to "empty somebody out" before they can be "filled back in". If you dismantle somebody's false preconceptions too quickly, they'll simply scurry back to wherever they came from. This means retreating to whatever semantic stopsigns they have been filled with in the past.
I don't have enough experience in real life with the difficulty of unmooring people from their semantic stopsigns to really understand it, but it seems to check out. Jed offers a peace of advice here:
Many athiests today scoff at religious people for believing in unfalsifiable ideas, but Jed levies this same argument against athiests and sees it as just another religion. Some of the largest sources of semantic stopsigns today are religion and athiesm.
IV. Enlightenment and Rationality
While reading the book I kept making connections between Jed's point of view and that of the rationality community - both have a strong desire to rid themselves of false beliefs.
Rationalists like to follow the Litany of Hodgell: "That which can be destroyed by the truth should be". Jed has his own similar expression: "Destroy everything. Burn it all. Nothing false will survive. Nothing true will perish.".
I think Jed takes it one step further than the rationalists. In some sense the rationality community is clinging on to the semantic stopsign of bayes rule and empiricism, while Jed lights even those on fire and declares truth as non-existent.
V. Living as an Enlightened Person
One interesting aspect of the book is that you got to learn about how Jed, an "enlightened" one, goes about living his life.
His lifestyle is relatively simple. He lives in a house and mainly just hangs out without trying to satisfy some higher purpose. He watches TV and plays video games like a normal person. People who are trying to become enlightened will stop by occasionally and ask him to offer them guidance, and he'll help when he feels like it.
The thing I like about this description is that it is consistent with the view of "nothing matters" and perfect tranquility. Sometimes people will suggest that you can be both perfectly free from desire and work on improving the world, but those properties seem contradictory. If you are free from desire, why would you do anything or help anyone? You might do something "just because why not", but there's no actual "reason" for you to do anything at that point. You might as well go meditate in a cave.
He also describes what it's like for him to interact with other people:
The main idea here is that he has become so separated from the memes and beliefs that inhabit other people, that he has begun to lose the ability to communicate. The ability to sympathize and communicate comes from shared programming, but he no longer shares the same programming. He started to see himself as somewhat of an alien compared to other people.
At one point one of his students, Arthur, is asking for guidance on becoming enlightened and "the path with heart". Their conversation is interesting:
This supports the idea that there is no rhyme or reason to what you do afterwards. You just choose something to do arbitrarily.
Here's another passage that helps understand how Jed lives his life. He doesn't try to fake being some mindful happy spiritual teacher:
Having learned a bit about how Jed lives his life, it's clear that he sees the world very differently from the average person. It's reasonable to say that those who become enlightened become "insane" by the standards of society.
VI. The Point of Life
One passage in particular stuck with me after reading this book. Jed was at a campfire with some of his housemates when one of them, a pretty sincere guy named Brendan, asked Jed what the meaning of life is. Brendan tossed out the question casusally in a way suggesting that he considered it unanswereable, so Jed let it go at the time.
Later on when the discussion moved to a more philosophical one, Jed brought it back up.
Brendan's treatment of the point of life matches the way I see most people treat it, while Jed's response showed me how ridiculous this is.
As an example, sometimes I ask people what the point of life is, and the most common answer is "42". "42" is a joke answer to the question and reinforces the meme that it deserves to be treated as a joke. But how can we do anything until that most fundamental of all questions is answered?
VII. Should You Try to Become Enlightened?
A natural question is: What kind of person becomes enlightened? Should you try to become enlightened? Here's Jed's view:
As far as his own journey, he describes it as follows:
With that, I guess it's up to you where you take things from here. I'm curious what your guys thoughts are!