This is how I understand it:
Generally, I think I agree with this. The question is, how specifically high is the level where people are trying to do "the right thing". Here I can imagine that people who didn't have experience with (conventionally called) evil people, can underestimate the necessary level of abstraction.
For some people, in their model of the world, "the right thing" includes e.g. torturing the nonbelievers. Not only because of some reasons that we could consider palatable -- for example, when someone burns a witch, we could say "well, in their model of the world, ...
This is phenomenally clear thinking and has clarified something I've been struggling to understand for the last 10 years. Thank you.
I think the most simple example is how people in the past considered torturing animals enjoyable.
When you focus on animals, it removes a lot of human rationalizations from the picture. The animals are not your political enemies. They are not your religious enemies. They are not your business competitors. Most of the clever rationalizations a modern civilized person one could find for why e.g. some religious people enjoy torturing heretics, they don't apply to animals. Yet, some people enjoy torturing animals.
Can we agree that some people enjoy torturing animals, and that in the past (past is also a different culture) such behavior was more frequent?
If yes, then the hypothesis that some people also enjoy torturing humans, and that the frequency of such enjoyment depends on culture (by which I don't deny the possibility of also biological causes) seems rather likely to me.
I feel a bit dirty for calling Chesterton to help, but here he is:
...If it be true (as it certainly is) that a man can feel exquisite happiness in skinning a cat, then the religious philosopher can only draw one of two deductions. He must either deny the existence of God, as all atheists do; or he must deny the prese
what we mean by freedom - "people to be left more or less alone, to follow whichever religion they want or none, to speak their minds, to try to shape society's laws so they serve the people"
That's roughly what I mean by freedom. But this meaning of "freedom" is contested. There's another conception of freedom which is something like "making sure that everyone has the right information, incentives, resources and social context so they will make the choices most beneficial to themselves." This is almost the opposite of what I mean by freedom, but it is nevertheless widely used. Al-Qaeda don't like Freedom1, but they are very much in favour of Freedom2.
I think its pretty clear in this case that the root of Al Qaeda's hate of America has nothing to do with America's freedom. There are many countries which are just as free--if not more so--than the US. (Has Al Qaeda ever bothered to condemn Japan?) No doubt they disapprove of many aspects of the American lifestyle, but mostly they are interested in signalling to their fellow Muslims the purity of their opposition to US power in the middle east. Attacking a shared common enemy is a tactic for increasing support for Al Qaeda throughout the Muslim world. The root cause of the Anti-American sentiment is the very real history of US aggression and meddling in local affairs.
Likewise, when US politicians condemn rival countries for human-rights violations, you can be sure that they don't actually care about human rights. Hence they frequently condemn Russia, Syria, and Iran while being close allies with countries that are much less democratic and much more oppressive (Saudi Arabia, Bahrain.)
Evil, defined as taking pleasure in someone else's unwanted pain, exists. And if we pretend it doesn't and look for other motives when evil was the driving force we get a mismatch between map and territory.
Edit
Good/Love = My utility goes up as other peoples' utility increases. Evil/Hate = My utility goes up as other peoples' utility decreases.
As I tell my intermediate microeconomics students, only economists really understand love.
I'm unconvinced that this is a good question, for two reasons.
So I think we'd get nearer to James's intent if we asked whether a substantial fraction of humans (let's say, at least 3% or so) take pleasure in other people's unwanted pain for its own sake.
Yes, I agree.
The reason why I made the poll was that I read James's comment (before the edit), noticed the downvote, and was like: "What? I thought this was completely obvious? Does anyone here actually disagree? Wow, I am so curious to ask about their reasons."
First, I wanted just to write "Dear downvoter, please explain." with a hope to have an interesting conversation. But then I thought it would be even better to know how many people share which opinion. Like, maybe I am the minority here and... uhm, don't know what, but could be an interesting opportunity to learn.
So, in a way, getting the answers I got here was a new information for me.
EDIT: Feel free to make a new poll with more detailed options. I am not sure what they should be.
When trying to be more precise, it might be useful to distinguish between "enjoys other people's pain" and "enjoys something that causes other people pain, and is neutral about the pain". For example, many people love playing computer games where they shoot virtual people. Now imagine that the only opportunity would be shooting real people. Some people would refuse. Some people would enjoy doing it.
Now imagine...
Behind every religious war is a political cause. That's what gives an organization like al-Qaeda its support and that's where new recruits come from. The modern jihad movement really got off the ground when the mujahideen fought the Soviets in Afghanistan (guess who provided money and training). Once you have a group that successfully uses the banner of radical Islam to fight off one foreign invader, it makes sense to use that same approach to tackle other problems--Israel and American influence. The event that sparked the enmity between al-Qaeda and the U...
That comment rather illustrates the mistake I mean. Take that last point about neo-Nazis, it is exactly like what Orwell said, that there are people who do not understand that others can be motivated by racial frenzy. Some of Hitler's early backers were simple crooks who thought they were using him for relatively prosaic political ends, but Hitler had his own ends that he pushed through with some force.
Similarly you say that when bin Laden condemns American decadence or depravity from an Islamic perspective, that's just propaganda to advance a political cause. What if it is the other way around? What if bin Laden instead invokes political grievances to advance a religious agenda? You assume that it cant possibly be that, but: Look at that document again - bin Laden goes into the usual rap against America and the West, but what he asks for is submission to Islam, to Shariah. His aim is, in his own words, explicitly theocratic.
Take the obvious parallel of Hitler. Yes, you can point to the role of inflation, mass unemployment etc. as allowing his rise. But you cannot draw a line from those to the genocide of the Jews. Even if you ditch morality, a global conflict and the ma...
Freedom is an abstraction. People mean different things by it. Bin Laden largely doesn't use the word. He objects to a small list of specific practices. He objects to the American freedom to be immoral, but almost everyone restricts freedom, such as the freedom to kill. Indeed, in a passage you quote, "You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom," he explicitly says that the problem is scope of personal freedom, not the concept of freedom.
You might say that the principal freedom of the...
The document asks two questions: (Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you? (Q2) What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?
As an answer towards (Q2) it calls on the rejection of immoral acts. It doesn't say that those immoral acts are the answer to (Q1). Why do you ignore the answers to Q1 that the document lists and instead try to pretend that the answers towards Q2 are answer to Q1?
The fact that you need to go through that exercise of distorting what the document says suggests that your argument is a bit forced.
Sorry if this wasn't clear, but the whole document is called "Why We Are Fighting You". And I think that you have missed the following line at the end:
"If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation"
"All these conditions". Not some. Not just Palestine or support for autocrats in the middle east. All these conditions, and in writing the first one as the submission to Islam, bin Laden is in tune with centuries of similar thinkers.
I was quoting from a book called "The Al Qaeda Reader", and I wasn't aware that that particular letter had been put up online. Sorry, if I'd know, I'd have included a link. Bin Laden elsewhere says "There are only three choices in Islam: either willing submission; or payment of the jizya, thereby physical, though not spiritual, submission to the authority of Islam; or the sword - for it is not right to let him [an infidel] live. The matter is summed up for every person alive: either submit, or live under the suzerainty of Islam, or die."
And also:
"The West is hostile to us on account of Loyalty and Enmity, and [Offensive] Jihad.... What the West...
From your perspective the point is to make the dhimmi feel subdued
A half dozen different Koran translations list "subdued", "humbled", "brought low", "in a state of subjection", "belittled". I don't think that ThePrussian is inventing his own personal perspective here.
Al Qaeda hating freedom is denotationally true (by the definition of freedom you are currently using), but connotationally false.
Al Qaeda didn't attack us because they were innately evil. They attacked us because they thought we were innately evil. If thinking someone is innately evil makes you innately evil, then I guess they are innately evil, but they're also correct.
2) the idea that Al Qaeda is motivated by a hatred of American freedom is false.
This doesn't follow. There is not contradiction with 1). One can see one's own hate as righteous, and most often does. In fact, most Americans hate militant Islam and think their hate it righteous, not villainous, so it's very symmetric.
As I understand it, the mainstream interpretation of that document is not that Bin Laden is attacking America for its freedom; rather, AQ's war aims were the following:
See, e.g., this wikipedia article, or The Looming Tower. Eliezer is correct that AQ's attacks were not caused by AQ's hted of American freedoms.
The underlying principle is simple as simple can be. You have your values, and I have mine, so that I may find your values repugnant, and you may find my values repugnant.
In the case of Al Qaeda, they've expressed their values, which I find repugnant, and would expect them to find my values repugnant in turn.
There's no mystery here. You have a wonderfully clear exposition of what is going on in the particular case of Al Qaeda vs. western values, but don't you find it odd that it's necessary to have this discussion?
It's like people are just spinning around in words.
First post here, and I'm disagreeing with something in the main sequences. Hubris acknowledged, here's what I've been thinking about. It comes from the post "Are your enemies innately evil?":
If I'm misreading this, please correct me, but the way I am reading this is:
1) People do not construct their stories so that they are the villains,
therefore
2) the idea that Al Qaeda is motivated by a hatred of American freedom is false.
Reading the Al Qaeda document released after the attacks called Why We Are Fighting You you find the following:
"Freedom" is of course one of those words. It's easy enough to imagine an SS officer saying indignantly: "Of course we are fighting for freedom! For our people to be free of Jewish domination, free from the contamination of lesser races, free from the sham of democracy..."
If we substitute the symbol with the substance though, what we mean by freedom - "people to be left more or less alone, to follow whichever religion they want or none, to speak their minds, to try to shape society's laws so they serve the people" - then Al Qaeda is absolutely inspired by a hatred of freedom. They wouldn't call it "freedom", mind you, they'd call it "decadence" or "blasphemy" or "shirk" - but the substance is what we call "freedom".
Returning to the syllogism at the top, it seems to be that there is an unstated premise. The conclusion "Al Qaeda cannot possibly hate America for its freedom because everyone sees himself as the hero of his own story" only follows if you assume that What is heroic, what is good, is substantially the same for all humans, for a liberal Westerner and an Islamic fanatic.
(for Americans, by "liberal" here I mean the classical sense that includes just about everyone you are likely to meet, read or vote for. US conservatives say they are defending the American revolution, which was broadly in line with liberal principles - slavery excepted, but since US conservatives don't support that, my point stands).
When you state the premise baldly like that, you can see the problem. There's no contradiction in thinking that Muslim fanatics think of themselves as heroic precisely for being opposed to freedom, because they see their heroism as trying to extend the rule of Allah - Shariah - across the world.
Now to the point - we all know the phrase "thinking outside the box". I submit that if you can recognize the box, you've already opened it. Real bias isn't when you have a point of view you're defending, but when you cannot imagine that another point of view seriously exists.
That phrasing has a bit of negative baggage associated with it, that this is just a matter of pigheaded close-mindedness. Try thinking about it another way. Would you say to someone with dyscalculia "You can't get your head around the basics of calculus? You are just being so close minded!" No, that's obviously nuts. We know that different peoples minds work in different ways, that some people can see things others cannot.
Orwell once wrote about the British intellectuals inability to "get" fascism, in particular in his essay on H.G. Wells. He wrote that the only people who really understood the nature and menace of fascism were either those who had felt the lash on their backs, or those who had a touch of the fascist mindset themselves. I suggest that some people just cannot imagine, cannot really believe, the enormous power of faith, of the idea of serving and fighting and dying for your god and His prophet. It is a kind of thinking that is just alien to many.
Perhaps this is resisted because people think that "Being able to think like a fascist makes you a bit of a fascist". That's not really true in any way that matters - Orwell was one of the greatest anti-fascist writers of his time, and fought against it in Spain.
So - if you can see the box you are in, you can open it, and already have half-opened it. And if you are really in the box, you can't see the box. So, how can you tell if you are in a box that you can't see versus not being in a box?
The best answer I've been able to come up with is not to think of "box or no box" but rather "open or closed box". We all work from a worldview, simply because we need some knowledge to get further knowledge. If you know you come at an issue from a certain angle, you can always check yourself. You're in a box, but boxes can be useful, and you have the option to go get some stuff from outside the box.
The second is to read people in other boxes. I like steelmanning, it's an important intellectual exercise, but it shouldn't preclude finding actual Men of Steel - that is, people passionately committed to another point of view, another box, and taking a look at what they have to say.
Now you might say: "But that's steelmanning!" Not quite. Steelmanning is "the art of addressing the best form of the other person’s argument, even if it’s not the one they presented." That may, in some circumstances, lead you to make the mistake of assuming that what you think is the best argument for a position is the same as what the other guy thinks is the best argument for his position. That's especially important if you are addressing a belief held by a large group of people.
Again, this isn't to run down steelmanning - the practice is sadly limited, and anyone who attempts it has gained a big advantage in figuring out how the world is. It's just a reminder that the steelman you make may not be quite as strong as the steelman that is out to get you.
[EDIT: Link included to the document that I did not know was available online before now]