All of Algernoq's Comments + Replies

Mad-Eye Moody had once worked out how long it had taken him, in retrospect, to achieve what he now considered a decent level of caution - weighed up how much experience it had taken him to get good instead of lucky - and had begun to suspect that most people died before they got there.

You are here to learn how to defend yourselves against the Dark Arts. Which means, let us be very clear on this, defending yourselves against Dark Wizards.

My sense is that the political risk exceeds the disease risk.

Father had told Draco that to fathom a strange plot, one technique was to look at what ended up happening, assume it was the intended result, and ask who benefited.

What if we assume that the COVID pandemic was the intended result?

Generally, people are biased toward doing what is easy and pleasurable, and making excuses to justify it.

Anecdotally, two programmers who might have occasionally used cocaine ended up quitting their programming jobs to become artists, and have been slowly spending their savings for a few years, working toward making a living through their art (unlikely, they're OK but not that great yet) and thinking the same tier of programming job will be available for them to go back to (doubtful). I strongly suggested that they should both go into AI programming, but they are too normie to listen. So my anecdotal evidence is that the cognitive impact of cocaine is that it makes people make irrational decisions. 

Human nature suggests that an all-powerful council-of-elders always becomes corrupt, so that approach might not be possible either.

2ChristianKl
Human nature is relatively irrelevant to the behavior of AIs. At the same time that's basically saying that the alignment is a hard problem. The alignment problem is one of the key AI safety problems.

Good luck man. I did a different kind of engineering, but here is some advice I wish I had heard 15 years ago:

https://www.calnewport.com/blog/2009/03/12/some-thoughts-on-grad-school/ 

Thought #6: Listen to the Married Graduate Students and Ignore the Unmarried Students Who Live in the Dorms

Students with families have perspective on life and friends outside of the university. They tend to be happy and productive and think sleeping on the futon in your office is childish. They also bathe every day. Which is a nice bonus. The students who are unmarried an

... (read more)
5gjm
I am not convinced that "the LW proposal" is to appoint an all-powerful council of elders who decree who is and who isn't worthy to use AI technology, and in fact I don't recall ever seeing anything resembling that. (Though of course I might well have missed it.) What I think I have seen suggested or implied is that something like that might be beneficial for the development of possibly-superhumanly-intelligent AIs, on the basis that random individuals are simply not competent to judge whether what they're doing is safe and that if it isn't the results might be catastrophic. To whatever extent it's true that (1) humans are capable of producing superhumanly intelligent AIs and (2) superhumanly intelligent AIs are likely to have or acquire vastly superhuman power and (3) even conditional on being able to make the superhuman AIs, making them so that they don't use that power in ways we'd consider catastrophic is a Very Hard Problem (and I think it's fair to say that (1-3), or at least their possibility, is pretty central to the LW community's thinking on this), a permissively libertarian position on possibly-superhuman AI development seems uncomfortably close to a permissively libertarian position on, say, nuclear bombs. Whether (1-3) are right, and whether a "council of elders" is the best solution if they are, are debatable. But I don't think it should be even slightly controversial that conditional on (1-3) it's unconscionably dangerous to say "everyone should try to make their own superhuman AI and no one should try to stop them, because Freedom". The most freedom-positive society in human history is probably the United States of America. Even there, there are few people arguing that the Second Amendment confers on all the right to keep and bear nuclear warheads. Of course, if free-for-all AI development is in fact perfectly safe (at least in the sense of being vanishingly unlikely to result in outright catastrophe) then "everyone has to be free to do it becau
5ChristianKl
Deciding based on the two approaches based on which values they align with misunderstands the problem. A good strategy depends on what's actually possible. The idea that human/AI hybrids are competitive at requiring resources in an enviroment with strong AGIs is doubtful. That means that over time all the resources and power go to the AGIs.
1Jozdien
Thanks. I'm not sure if you thought of it while reading my comment or if it's generally your go-to advice, but I may have accidentally given the wrong impression about how much I prioritize work over being around other people.  It's good to be actively reminded about it though for entropy reasons, so I appreciate it. I admit that what I know about AI Safety comes from reading posts about it instead of talking with the experts about their meta-level ideas, but that doesn't sound like the impression I got.  CEV, for example, is one example that deals with the ethical mess of which people's values are worth including.  The discussion around that generally had a very negative prior to anyone having the power to decide whose values are good enough, is what it appeared like to me.  Elon's proposal comes with its own set of problems, a couple that stick out to me being co-ordination problems between multiple AGI, and grid-linking not completely solving the alignment problem because we'll still be far inferior to good AGI.

It occurs to me that if PG&E were evil, it might decide that it's cheaper to secretly hire 'fire vigilantes' to start fires which PG&E is not responsible for, than to bury the cables.

3BlueSun
Typically, as long as the expense is deemed prudent by regulators, utilities are permitted to 'rate base' the expense and earn a return on investment. If PG&E think it's politically possible to increase expenses by $20-30B because there's a good narrative to offset complaints of rising utility prices, it's the selfish thing to do. The times that require strict scrutiny for investor-owned utilities is when they jump on the bandwagon of a politically popular spending proposal (wise infrastructure investments comes from experts getting the politicians on board, not politicians getting the experts on board).

I think they went extinct ultimately because these effects started a process that gradually invalidated the preconditions for reliable cultural transmission in that species

Yeah. I hope Youtube knows what it's doing.

5abramdemski
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/RXLbe6oZGxNWvQawn/the-youtube-revolution-in-knowledge-transfer

In the videogame "Starcraft", it's economics (macro) that wins wars. A player can win every single battle (micro) and still lose the game, if the other player's economy is improving their relative position faster than they are losing militarily. A common tactic is to make small attacks on the other player's economy production units, attempting to do a lot of economic damage without fighting any military units. The true scope of the damage might not be obvious, since the "fog of war" conceals most of what the other player is doing. I remember one game where... (read more)

This is a beautifully written story. One criticism is that it seems to have a Moral that assumes the Blue cryonicist acts as he does in the story... an entertaining story, but limits the applicability of the Moral. In particular, signing up for cryonics and going out in a blaze of glory are really quite opposite personality traits if you think about it.

4andrew sauer
Just shows how effective the disagreement is at getting people to care deeply about it I guess

"What good is life experience to someone who plays Quidditch?" said Professor Quirrell, and shrugged. "I think you will change your mind in time, after every trust you place has failed you, and you have become cynical."

"You have to get seriously burnt by friends/employers/family members (ideally all three) over women/money/jobs (again ideally all three) before you realise that you create more hassle for yourself and crush opportunities if people perceive you to be smart/rich/well connected. Most people simply are not worth knowing and are too insecure to be good friends with."

2Lumifer
I am pretty cynical already and I don't see the point of this quote. I am not saying you should be a loyal friend to the whole world. You, I presume, have been recently burned and so your sense of risk-reward is skewed at the moment. Yes, you can arrange your life to be almost entirely safe from emotional harm, but I suspect it will be a barren and highly unsatisfying life.

Jesus christ dude.

I put a check mark for today on the calendar I use to track my Quirrelmort-inspired cynicism.

But even though crime happens, that doesn't mean that everyone is a criminal.

Brains evolved to enable people to exploit dumber people.

It sounds to me like what might have happened in your case is that you focused really hard on being "good" and not so much on being "powerful"

I naively believed the best way to get a good wife was to act like a good husband.

It turns out that the best way to get a good wife is to be po... (read more)

Don't let the fact that bad female actors exist deter you from having happy relationships with good female actors.

"Good" = doing what benefits others. "Bad" = doing what benefits me.

It's safest to assume that any woman will dump/manipulate/cheat me the second it's in her best interest to do so.

It's safest to assume all guns are loaded.

Nope, the best case scenario is to marry the chief or otherwise secure the commitment of a high status man.

Nope, for any given high status man the woman is able to marry, there exists an even hig... (read more)

0ChristianKl
There are guys who primarily car about having sex with hot woman and there are woman who primarily care about having sex with hot man. In both cases that's not the whole population. Furthermore for many woman having sex with a man with whom they are in a love relationship is better than having sex with man with whom they aren't.
1hg00
http://lesswrong.com/lw/l0/adaptationexecuters_not_fitnessmaximizers/ Anyway, it sounds like you've gone through a lot. I'm sorry to hear of your suffering. I hope that someday you will have joyful experiences that help you put your current suffering in perspective.
0Lumifer
Ask and ye shall receive. You're setting yourself up for an unhappy life.
0Lumifer
Nope. But it seems we've gone full circle.

"Being surprised" is privileging your own beliefs over others.

Denying the realities of class doesn't make them go away. Your beliefs are the map, but the terrterritory includes rich people who own the brands that own your mind.

0Lumifer
What?? Sense makes not. Surprise is the sensation you get when you prior beliefs (even if weak) were overturned or at least contradicted by empirical evidence. How is that "privileging your own beliefs"? Besides, I certainly privilege my own beliefs over beliefs of other people. I don't know how one can function otherwise. No they don't. I'm quite sure that my mind isn't owned by any brands (among other things I actively dislike advertising).

Can you argue the content? "Old" and "unpopular" are weak refutations.

Classism is part of current politics, as well as my personal experience.

0Lumifer
I was explaining my surprise, not arguing the content, but do you want me to argue against the the claim that the class struggle is the main driver behind social organization and social relationships? I think it's a well-trodden ground. On the basic level, the Marxist approach lacks explanatory power and makes wrong predictions.
0Lumifer
As I mentioned, I associate your approach with the idea of a "class enemy". This comes straight out of Marxism and was a popular approach around the turn of the century -- the XX century, so more than a hundred years ago. Marxism (and in particular the whole idea that social interactions are defined by the class struggle) has been pretty much discredited by now. Outside of some diehard pockets (in academia and hard-left organizations) no one really tries to claim that the class struggle is what drives social relationships. LW isn't particularly Marxist, either. So that's why I was surprised to see what to me is an old and unpopular idea here -- and moreover, see it applied to a girlfriend/boyfriend relationship, not even to employment or something like that.

But the point is the whole framework where the important thing about the girl is that she's a proletarian and the about that man is that he's bourgeoisie.

Yes. Making generalizations about groups of people is a powerful, useful tool for decision-making.

express my surprise without you reading it as shaming?

Your surprise implies criticism. I assume you believe "it's dirty/wrong to generalize about groups of people. it's especially dirty/wrong to have negative beliefs about poor people and about lower-class people". I appreciate the criticism, though I imagine you find my beliefs repugnant.

0Lumifer
Sometimes. And sometimes it will lead you astray. Especially if your classification scheme is... suspect. Why? I am surprised at a lot of things, finding something unexpected and finding something worthy of criticism are orthogonal things. I am sorry to disappoint you, I believe no such thing. Nothing even close to that.

Pretty accurate. Why sacrifice, when the payment is shame, not praise? Why be a good person, when I am called a weak coward for not taking as much as I can?

1Lumifer
Heh. Really, why?

acted to prevent, what he thought to be, the global catastrophic risk?

That makes it all OK, right?

Hooray! I can be sociopathically self-centered as long as I describe it in a politically-correct way!

0[anonymous]
No, that makes it inconsistent.

Do you have actual evidence that [Elon Musk was pushed out of PayPal by a secret cabal of global financiers who wanted to ensure global financial markets stayed opaque] or is it just a hunch?

Just a hunch. But, "to understand a complex plot look at the outcome and see who benefits."

Cuckoldry seems relatively rare in non-self-selected populations.

Over 1% risk for unsuspecting men is enough that I'll paternity-test all of my children prior to claiming legal fatherhood.

For an emotionally stable woman, a committed relationship with a respec

... (read more)
0hg00
As would I--there's no reason not to. But I think you are putting too much emphasis on the importance of this. In a healthy relationship, a paternity test is like an air bag: it's a safety measure to guard against something that has a very low chance of happening. Don't let the fact that bad female actors exist deter you from having happy relationships with good female actors. There's a woman on this very forum who precommitted to having her kids paternity tested. He invented the rigid flight helmet. Nope, the best case scenario is to marry the chief or otherwise secure the commitment of a high status man. Cheating has a huge downside: it's possible to get caught and become ostracized. In the EEA, if a single mother was ostracized, her child's chance of success was considerably diminished. This created evolutionary pressure for women to be loyal, and that's why over 90% of births are non-cuckold births. That's why loyalty to a respected brave is a strategy that has higher expected value than cheating on a respected brave with the chief. It doesn't take a genius to think of stuff like this, but it does not trigger male outrage and thus does not gather tons of pageviews and get repeated ad nauseum. BTW I recommend http://reddit.com/r/purplepilldebate for getting some perspective on Red Pill ideas. But just in general keep in mind that they're presenting the ideas in the way that gets you maximally riled up due to memetic selection effects (see outrage link).

So it was OK for them to lie to me?

I did not say that.

To fix this mistake, internalize the fact that the rules don't apply to you. The rules apply to people who follow the rules.

Sounds like you're saying lying is OK.

If you ask for a favor that you know he can easily do and he says “no” this does not imply that the person is mean. Instead? It implies that he has no reason to grant the favor.

That's selfishness...maximizing one's own utility at the expense of total utility. Apparently this is OK.

Roosh (Red Pill thought leader) has written mult

... (read more)
2hg00
Sure, in certain circumstances. I think I agree with Chris Hallquist at least. A person who's maximizing total utility is not going to grant every favor asked of them. Women cried when they found his blog. They did not blow a raspberry in disgust. They cried because they thought they had some kind of connection with a guy who turned out to be callously manipulating them. I agree it's a perspective worth keeping in mind and I said so above. I'm just saying that the case the RP folks make is overstated. Think about it this way: Crime happens. Sometimes people get mugged. And it makes sense to take steps to protect yourself from getting mugged. Maybe you're going to learn martial arts. Maybe you're going to avoid walking through sketchy areas at night. Maybe you're going to pack heat. But even though crime happens, that doesn't mean that everyone is a criminal. It's easy for a person who had one or two really emotionally significant muggings to update on those experiences and start assuming the world is full of criminals even if that isn't actually the case. I don't think it's normal for unmarried men to stick with women who don't have sex with them for years, so if you don't mind I'm going to psychoanalyze you a little bit. It sounds to me like what might have happened in your case is that you focused really hard on being "good" and not so much on being "powerful" (see my good power attraction equation from above). You were passed over by women looking for monogamous relationships, because they thought they could do better than you in the "power" department, and get a respected brave instead of a disrespected one. However, you were an ideal mate for "dual mating strategy" bad actor women. For these women, the fact that your "power" stat was low did not matter since they were just* looking for a provider to work their dual strategy. Since your relationship prospects were filtered in this way, this gave you a distorted picture of what a typical woman is like. Ano

No...Voldemort isn't altruistic, and considers the "global community" too disorganized to be an ally worth seeking favor with.

3[anonymous]
...you do realize he is Voldemort? The one who acted to prevent, what he thought to be, the global catastrophic risk?

A nice proletarian girl isn't supposed to sleep with a bourgeoise man, that makes her worse than a slut -- that makes her a traitor.

If she can get a bourgeoise man to marry her, good for her. But chances are she won't, and she will never tell the proletarian man she ends up marrying about her past with the bourgeoisie man. This causes the proletarian man to suffer increased health risks.

I'm somewhat surprised to find this attitude on the 'net in 2016.

This is liberal shaming language.

5Lumifer
Heh. "My sister got lucky, married a yuppie..." :-) But the point is the whole framework where the important thing about the girl is that she's a proletarian and the about that man is that he's bourgeoisie. I do not intend to shame. How do you think I can express my surprise without you reading it as shaming?

A lot of great topics here.

Elon Musk has risked his entire fortune for you.

I am a huge fan of Elon Musk.

I suspect a big reason Mr. Musk tries to make the greatest possible positive difference for humanity is to reduce his risk of being murdered by established players. He’s pissed off a lot of powerful people, but provided benefits to many more.

He was forced out of controlling PayPal...and his vision for PayPal was to make it a “full-service financial institution”. He wanted to “convert the financial system from a series of heterogeneous insecure datab... (read more)

2Good_Burning_Plastic
Would you date a woman who is a good person and makes a positive difference and has a job but whom you don't find sexually attractive at all?
2ChristianKl
High IQ means good genes. There a huge difference between illegal and not legally enforceable.
0hg00
I did not say that. If women were as terrible as you claim they are, it would not be necessary to tell them lies. Telling them about the other women you were seeing would increase their attraction to you. Roosh (Red Pill thought leader) has written multiple times about how girls he's slept with have cried when they found his blog. This is also a data point that works against Red Pill ideology--if Roosh's online personality was actually one that women found attractive, they should want to fuck him even more after finding his blog. I suspect what is going on is that Roosh used disrespect for women as a crutch to overcome the fact that he used to be a weak, directionless man (as a result of unknown environmental factors--see my other comment) and overcome his fear of them. Then once he was reinforced for this behavioral strategy (with what is possible evolution's strongest reinforcer), he kept it up. Mark Manson wrote a good piece on this. OK, so I think you are making a sort of classic geek mistake of believing that the stated rules are the actual rules. This is something most people figure out relatively early in life, but the same cognitive reallocation that makes geeks so good at analytical stuff, and the internal honesty that makes them good at building accurate world models, may mean they take a while to pick this hypocrisy stuff up. To fix this mistake, internalize the fact that the rules don't apply to you. The rules apply to people who follow the rules. Operate with more of a consequentialist mentality. Sometimes the world needs Chaotic Good agents of justice to use Tor through a proxy and talk trash about people online. It sounds like this issue is important to you--this is your opportunity to be a hero. Just keep in mind: "It's only illegal if you get caught". Wait a while after you have left the lives of these men to write about them, and distort your accusations so they won't think of you while you're reading them. Do thorough thinking/planning/research
1hg00
Do you have actual evidence that this happened or is it just a hunch? I've read a bit about it, and my understanding is that there were other factors... e.g. Musk was pushing the team away from open source and towards using Windows Server for everything. I'm familiar with this school of thought, and I think it's a useful perspective to keep in mind. My impression is that its prominence online has more to do with it plugging in to the rage-generating part of a man's brain (helpful for virality) than it having a solid evidential base. (It seems similar to leftist SJW canard in this regard.) Note the lack of citations in the essay you link to. Here are some data points that cause me to think the Red Pill folks overstate their case: * Cuckoldry seems relatively rare in non-self-selected populations. * Data does not seem to support the notion of extreme sexual inequalities based on how good looking a man is. * Only 3-5% of mammals pair bond. Humans are in that 3-5%. If women cheated with bad boys as consistently as the Red Pill types claim they do, pair bonding behaviors would have been selected against. (Note: I believe, though I have no evidence to prove it, that women use their relationship with their father as a cue re: whether to perform more of an r-selected or K-selected mating strategy. If their father is absent, that's evidence that r-selected mating is working out better in the current environment, and hence she feels low self-esteem, feels insecure that no man will ever love her, and assuages that insecurity by hooking up with high status men to prove to herself that she's worth something--or something like that, I don't know the exact psychological mechanism evolution has used to implement this. The takeaway is to date women who have good relationships with their fathers if you want a long-term monogamous partner, not women with "daddy issues".) "Now it may be true that modern life leaves most men testosterone-deficient. But if that’s true, the culpri

OP wants me to help stop global catastrophic risks.

It's illegal to hurt the people who created the global catastrophic risks, so count me out. I don't work for free. I'd rather enjoy a nice life.

"Why, no," said Professor Quirrell. "I stopped trying to be a hero, and went off to do something else I found more pleasant."

"What? " said Hermione without thinking at all. "That's horrible! "

6turchin
I have spent 9 years writing texts about x-risks prevention. I spent a lot of money on it and lost a lot of business opportunities. I have been cheated all the time, in business, relationship and even science field. I have been humiliated in sexual field many times. I thought about suicide even I consider it impossible because of quantum immortality. I thought to stop doing it many times. Nobody reads my texts and even if some one is reading it has zero influence on total probability of extinction. But... I just return to my computer and continue to work on the texts in mornings, and try to have parties in evening. In fact solving complex intellectual problems provides me with consistent many hours pleasure. Relationship thing do the opposite.
9gjm
OP hasn't asked you to do anything; just presented some information that he hopes will help people trying to stop global catastrophic risks. If that's not a thing you want to do, it's just not addressed to you. (You sound very angry and upset. This probably isn't a helpful thing to say right now, but I'll say it anyway: if you can get less angry that will probably help you be less upset.)
0Lumifer
Do you consider hurting "the people who created the global catastrophic risks" payment?

I don't ask but it comes up. Certain occupations have corresponding values, that align with "cooperate" or "defect" strategies. For example, scientists "cooperate", while criminals and finance guys "defect" whenever they think it'll be profitable.

I notice you are using shaming language. I realize my beliefs are unusual but I am not clear what your question means.

5Lumifer
I think that's a picture of the world that's crude enough to be unusable. Not quite, I don't shame people, but I do find your attutude unusual. What it maps to for me is the concept of a class enemy. A nice proletarian girl isn't supposed to sleep with a bourgeious man, that makes her worse than a slut -- that makes her a traitor. And the thing about class enemies, you don't care about who they personally are, you just label them by class (e.g. "an actual Owner"). I'm somewhat surprised to find this attitude on the 'net in 2016.

Assuming this is all true...it's not at all clear that cooperation is my best move.

I refuse to sacrifice my life to protect billionaires who would not do the same for me. I won't labor under pointlessly annoying conditions to protect an ownership class that despises the technological progress and growth that I worked to create.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but...scientists get less sex than criminals.

In my personal experience...all of my ex-girlfriends had sex with someone who doesn't share my values -- a criminal, a future lawyer/financier, or an ac... (read more)

1root
Interpretation: you think that despite all the supposed/possible/theoretical/whatever goodwill, your effort will not actually be rewarded with anything. And not only that, you fear that while you're putting effort in that, other people put effort in themselves and once the great disaster is averted, your standing will be worse off compared to those that invested in themselves. Confirm/deny?
3hg00
Elon Musk has risked his entire fortune for you. "In my case, I think these things are important... I need to do it, I promised people I would do it, but I'm not doing it because this is the most fun way to live." The world's wealthiest people (the "ownership class") is increasingly made up of scientists and engineers: - Paul Graham Paul has written 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 essays that touch on the topic of why cooperators tend to get rich in Silicon Valley rather than defectors. The Silicon Valley elite is giving their money away significantly earlier in life than previous generations of wealthy people, and there are indicators that they care more about having their philanthropic dollars actually do good--here's tech billionaire Sean Parker on his giving philosophy. (Not to say that other wealthy people are especially lacking in their philanthropy--check out the Giving Pledge signatories.) High IQ people, regardless of gender, have less sex. But it's hard to tease out exactly why. I lean towards Paul Graham's explanation--highly intelligent people tend to be interested in things other than sex, whereas average people structure large amounts of their lives around it (for example, it's typical for every Friday and Saturday evening to be spent drinking carcinogens and searching for sexual partners). More evidence for this hypothesis: Intelligent people seem to be taller and better looking on average. And intelligent friends of mine who have chosen to optimize for having more sexual partners have done well, especially if they're willing to date down in intelligence (to avoid the problem that highly intelligent women are outnumbered by highly intelligent men and also relatively uninterested in sex) and live in an area with a favorable gender ratio. If you want more sexual partners, a good first step is to start working out--it will give you a masculine physique, help you live longer, improve sleep, improve immune system, improve willpower, etc. Once you've spent some time opti
-2Lumifer
You ask your girlfriends about the sociopolitical values of their exes? 8-0
5gjm
This doesn't seem to have much to do with the OP. Out of what?
1turchin
I agree with your observations about girls and had the same experiences. But I also believe in optimisation power of intelligence in reaching any goal. I am going to create a map of SexTech by the way - about all current and future technologies in relationship, sex and love.

Modest proposal for Friendly AI research:

Create a moral framework that incentivizes assholes to cooperate.

Specifically, create a set of laws for a "community", with the laws applying only to members, that would attract finance guys, successful "unicorn" startup owners, politicians, drug dealers at the "regional manager" level, and other assholes.

Win condition: a "trust app" that everyone uses, that tells users how trustworthy every single person they meet is.

Lose condition: startup fund assholes end up with majority... (read more)

0TheAltar
A trust app is going to end up with all the same issues credit ratings have.
2Viliam
Unrelated to AI: Making the "trust app" would be a great thing. I spent some time thinking about it, but my sad conclusion is that as soon as the app would become popular, it would fail somehow. For example, if it is not anonymous, people could use real-world pressures to force people to give them positive ratings. The psychopaths would threaten to sue people who label them as psychopaths, or even use violence directly against them. On the other hand, if the ratings are anonymous, a charming psychopath could sic their followers to give many negative ratings to their enemy. At the end, the ratings of a psychopath who hurt many people could look pretty similar to ratings of a decent person who pissed off a vengeful psychopath. Not sure what to do here. Maybe the usage itself of the "trust app" should be an information you only tell your trusted friends; and maybe create different personas for each group of friends. But then the whole network becomes sparse, so you will not be able to get information on most people you will care about. Also, there is still a risk that if the app becomes popular, there will be a social pressure to create an official persona, which will be further pressured to give socially acceptable ratings. (Your friends will still know your secret persona, but because of the sparse network, it will be mostly useless to them anyway.)
3Lumifer
That seems like a horrible idea. We can, of course, just not unconditionally and not all the time. Creatures which always cooperate are social insects.

Create a moral framework that incentivizes assholes to cooperate.

So, capitalism?

Oh no! The AI would make us hate each other before betraying us.

Makes sense.

It all breaks down if my consciousness is divisible. If I can lose a little conscious awareness at a time until nothing is left, then Quantum Immortality doesn't seem to work...I would expect to find myself in a world where my conscious awareness (whatever that is) is increasing.

I wish I could quantify how consciously aware I am.

0qmotus
Yes, that is an interesting point, and one I've been thinking about myself. It kind of seems to me that a diminishing of consciousness over time is somewhat inevitable, but it can be a long process. But I don't know where that leads us. Does QI mean that we should all expect to get Alzheimer's, eventually? Or end up in a minimally conscious state? What is that like? Is this process of diminishing reversible?

Can you say a little more about what specific past observations are not matched by a sophisticated version of Quantum Immortality?

1Manfred
Okay, so to go into more detail: The naive version I mean goes something like "In the future, the universe will have amplitude spread across a lot of states. But I only exist to care in a few of those states. So it's okay to make decisions that maximize my expected-conditional-on-existing utility." This is the one that's basically evidential decision theory - it makes the mistake (where "mistake" is meant according to what I think are ordinary human norms of good decision-making) of conditioning on something that hasn't actually happened when making decisions. Just like an evidential decision theory agent will happily bribe the newspaper to report good news (because certain newspaper articles are correlated with good outcomes), a naive QI agent will happily pay assassins to kill it if it has a below-average day. The second version I was thinking of (and I'm probably failing a turing test here) goes something like "But that almost-ordinary calculation of expected value is not what I meant - the amplitude of quantum states shouldn't be interpreted as probability at all. They all exist simultaneously at each time step. This is why I have equal probability - actual probability deriving from uncertainty - of being alive no matter how much amplitude I occupy. Instead, I choose to calculate expected value by some complicated function that merely looks a whole lot like naive quantum immortality, driven by this intuition that I'm still alive so long as the amplitude of that event is nonzero." Again, there is no counterargument that goes "no, this way of choosing actions is wrong according to the external True Source Of Good Judgment." But it sure as heck seems like quantum amplitudes do have something to do with probability - they show up if you try to encode or predict your observations with small turing machines, for example.

The 20th-century physicists speculated a lot about it. Schrodinger's Cat, the Wigner's Friend problem, etc. But in the absence of a test for consciousness they mostly went on to other things.

1qmotus
I've never heard that it occurred to any of them (aside from Hugh Everett) that quantum mechanics might imply something like quantum immortality, though.

That summarizes the "what" of the idea. The "why" part is that classical physics violations are improbable so timelines with lots of classical physics violations would be improbable.

1MrMind
Well, it falls under the very known problem of any MWI: how can we say that some branch is improbable if all are realized? Unless you reverse it: a branch is more improbable the more it violates classical mechanics.

In terms of conscious experience, dreamless sleep and death feel similar, as far as I know.

My naive linear model is that ~$400 billion research funding currently spent per year buys about 1 year increased lifespan per decade, so it would take about $4 trillion per year spent on research to stop aging, or a one-time investment of $80 trillion. For 99% confidence I'll add a safety factor of 4, yielding a one-time payment of $320 trillion, or $16 trillion per year. In other words, this back-of-the-envelope guess suggests the entire economic output of the United States would be just sufficient to discover and maintain an aging cure.

1ChristianKl
I don't think that all of the increased lifespan is due to healthcare spending. Various enviromental regulation likely increased lifespan. Our current paradigm of drug development unfortunately get's exponentially more expensive via Eroom's law. I doubt that simply spending more money in the same way produces linear progress. I think the problem of the mythical man month also exists in research. You can't simply throw in more money. Given researchers money can often make them spend money on fancy equipment instead of thinking hard about what to do. As far as hopes for the future of biology goes, I hope that Theranos will introduce something like Moore's law into blood testing prices. If it succeeds with that mission it's not simply because there a lot of money thrown into blood testing but because Theranos focus on producing cheap blood testing while currently the companies in the market have no incentives to test cheaply. YCombinators turn to fund biotech companies also fills me with hope. Bikanta Nanodiamond technology that allows very high resultion imaging of anything that you can hit with an antibody fills me with hope. The promise 100X more precise cancer imaging but if their technology really works and the can do it cheap, it has application beyond just cancer because being able to image anything at high resolution will allow us to learn to tag a lot of different things with antibodies. You could tag drugs with the nanodiamonds to see where in the body the drug travels. The fact that nanodiamonds are a solution also suggests that simply moving all research dollars to biology would be bad because nanodiamonds needed a lot of physics research to become viable. Better signal processing algorithms and AI might also further increase the precision of their imaging. Another great biotech company founded by YCombinator is uBiome. Thanks to relatively cheap DNA sequencing they track bacteria population on skin/mouth/gut/nose and penis/vagina. At present sequencin

Can I recruit followers? Starting a cult is a useful exercise for ambitious rationalists.

1wizard
Yes, everyone has permission to gather followers and begin cults for Rationatron.

The "Wigner's Friend" experiment has some interesting examples that physicists already thought about.

whether this is a "correct" way to describe reality

I'll find out in about 100 years.

0gjm
If you commit to flipping coins and shooting yourself dead as soon as you get a tail, you will also (in the same sense) "find out" that your coin has an astonishingly large bias towards heads. Are you sure this is a good notion of "finding out"? (This is just the same point as Viliam's last paragraph was making, but it seemed worth trying it from a different angle.)

I don't know if anyone else is conscious, but if they are, and they die in my branch of reality, then in my theory they experience a branch of reality in which they continue living.

seems indistinguishable from any other regligious belief in infinite life

I agree it's pretty similar. I have to accept the consciousness-causes-collapse interpretation, and it's a short hop from that to full-on theism.

It's a flawed argument but if for some reason there was a high complexity penalty to being born in an older Universe then it could be more likely to be born in a younger Universe where immortality technology has not quite been invented yet.

I agree provided the many-worlds interpretation is correct, which seems likely.

If the consciousness-causes-collapse interpretation is correct (which seems less likely), then the special form I described might still work. But I can't count on it.

In that case, it seems like Quantum Immortality doesn't work.

And here I thought I was safe. Dammit.

1Luke_A_Somers
Well, the nice form you described here doesn't work. The kind of lousy usual form does, with the usual caveats.

Thank you again for the thoughtful reply.

Your brain decoheres a zillion times per second. Your consciousness is far, far, far into the classical regime.

Observing does not cause collapse. Events which cause the wavefunction to split into dynamically separate parts do, and those happen at the same rate in a system regardless of how you cut it.

Eh? Observing is the only thing that causes collapse.

I agree that there are constant tiny thermodynamic events that, if observed, could cause decoherences a zillion times a second. But, usually these events are not... (read more)

6Luke_A_Somers
That isn't the relationship between decoherence and observation. Decoherence events are when a quantum system splits into multiple parts that are no longer dynamically accessible to each other. At this point, they are in different worlds. Observation events have to be decoherence events. Observation has no other role in quantum mechanics other than that in order to observe, you must decohere. So, whether or not you observe things, you are in some world of dynamically mutually accessible states, and this will evolve into many dynamically inaccessible components with or without your observing it. By the time you've observed anything, it's way too late to get from one to another.

I love this forum.

If I understand the experiment, your theory is that quantum weirdness makes it more likely to see four heads in a row because you resolved to flip many more coins if you don't.

Sounds fun. I'll flip four coins (actually use a string of 0's and 1's that's 4 bits long). If I don't get four heads, I'll generate a 10-digit sequence and memorize it. Let's explore this frontier!

I did it. It didn't work. My new favorite number is 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1.

Reality hack failed.

Let's try again. If I don't get 4 heads, I'll memorize a 20-digit number.

It d... (read more)

0solipsist
I'm not sure if coin flips are quantumly random, or just hard enough to predict. Feels like coins would still work as well in a Newtonian universe. I tried to go with something that something that is clearly caused by quantum effects, like measuring if electron is either polarized up or down or down. Luckily, there's an app for that.

Counterexample: I go to sleep (lose consciousness) and wake up again. QI seems to predict that I would never fall asleep, because I stop observing when I'm asleep and so QI would force me into universes in which I don't fall asleep. Timeless QI has no problem with me falling asleep and then observing I'm alive and awake hours later.

2gjm
I don't think advocates of QI generally mean by it what I think you're taking it to mean.

Thanks for the criticism.

summary: If, hypothetically, I tried to catch a terminal-velocity bowling ball with my face, your theory says I would experience the bowling ball doing nonfatal damage and then stopping just before killing me, and my theory says I would experience changing my mind and getting out of the way of the bowling ball. It looks like our key disagreement is whether Quantum Immortality only operates over short timescales. You say it only acts in an instant, and I say it acts over long time intervals as well.

longer argument: I'm not convinc... (read more)

0OrphanWilde
How sure of that are you, anyways?
0mwengler
So from the perspective of a you that I can talk to after the near miss with the bowling ball, your description makes sense. But it also makes sense to me. We are both in the universe where you changed your mind before the bowling ball hit you and you got out of the way. But from the perspective of me in the world where you got hit by the bowling ball and died in pain, your consciousness did whatever consciousnesses do when people die. Presumably it felt the fear when it noticed he inevitability, felt the impact and then the pain, and then stopped working as the neurons in the brain stopped working, some from immediate injury, others more slowly form loss of viable environment. The worlds in which people die exist. I am in a world where billions, of people have died. A small number I have seen die with my own eyes, a larger number I have seen soon after they died, a much larger number I know of by reliable report. This immortality you speak of: if there are identical twins and a the age of 5 they are crossing the street and one is hit by a bus,has not some individual died? If you live in a world with MWI, and at the age of 5 for one conscious version of you the universe splits, and in one of those branches EVERY new universe generated ends in your death at a finite age at least 20 years later, while in the other branch there are some branches where you go on forever, than have there not been at least one conscious version of you which will last 20 or more years, but not infinitely, that will die? This idea that your consciousness jumps from the dying world to somehow mystically join with the version of you in a different world is anti-intuitive at best, and non-scientific or religious at worst. Nothing else jumps between worlds once they have split, why would consciousness? There is already a consciousness in the world you want to jump to with different experiences than yours as you face your last seconds of life, how is there room for your consciousness to pop
4Luke_A_Somers
(Rather than start with the main point I'll follow your responses and conclude) 1 - word definitions. This was one of those that was not wrong, but unclear. 2 - another point that was kind of sketchy-looking. It wasn't directly wrong, but it looked overly simplified. You'll see why in a few points. A better limit would be not more than 2 to the power of that. Hilbert space is very, very large. 3 - this seems to be going out of order. Regular old Quantum Immortality takes as an axiom that you cannot experience death. If you could, then the whole thing falls to pieces. As for the universe putting you in a safe place, well then, you are fortunate. How does this argument apply to people who die? Did they not have subjective experiences? What makes them different from you? 4 - the heart of the matter This is seriously, majorly wrong, and the reason I complained about point 2. Your brain decoheres a zillion times per second. Your consciousness is far, far, far into the classical regime. Observing does not cause collapse. Events which cause the wavefunction to split into dynamically separate parts do, and those happen at the same rate in a system regardless of how you cut it. Depends on how you formulate it, doesn't it? Anyway, arguing against regular QI does not argue for your variant. That doesn't look like immortality to me. It looks like you dying eventually. You look at the history of your lifeline and it peters out, little by little, sometimes more at once than other times. Those decreases? Those are dying. The only way QI works is if you ignore the parts that died, and the only justification I've seen for doing that is by locking your viewpoint to your subjective experience. That's what allows you to discard any cases where you don't survive. If you're looking from a distance, you see a whole lot of dead you-s out there.
0Viliam
On macroscopic scale, yes. Trying to observe a particle in the double-slit experiment could change your mind (you might realize you are observing an interaction of multiple worlds, differing only in the trajectory of the observed particle). This is probably irrelevant for everyday life, but using the word "quantum" reminds people that it's at least technically not true. It could possibly become more relevant in a very far future, approaching the heat death of the universe, if we take the immortality literally. Seems to me like an example of selection bias. Some of your future you's will die, and the rest of them will happily exclaim: "I knew I was immortal!" The question is whether this is a "correct" way to describe reality (and what specifically "correct" means in this context).
1gjm
This also explains why you find yourself in a world that has already perfected immortality technology. ... Oh, wait. [EDITED to add: I see that you sort-of addressed this "... would require a more complicated Universe". But I don't understand that at all. How would it require a more complicated universe?]

This distinction is irrelevant to the main point: I expect to experience living forever without experiencing unusual luck. This is true regardless of whether MWi-QI or Tegmark's MU theory is more accurate.

1ike
The specific example is wrong in mere MWI, as is some of the comments here. If we fix the physical laws as constant, and merely vary over the wave function, it's not clear how "unlucky" worlds are more likely, or what a lucky world would look like. I think you should change the reference from mwi to mu, or else explicitly analyze both.
Load More