All of KevinGrant_duplicate0.2409764628391713's Comments + Replies

I'm doing a little reading on both of them now. Big question: how to make them successful as social movements. I wonder if their elements can be modeled in a fashion similar to that which I did above. And if so, if there's anything that such an application can tell us about how to improve their chances for success.

0Tem42
This sort of problem is susceptible to the red queen's race -- if you solve it, that just means that lots of people will copy you, and you will find yourself in competition with a new crop of viral religions. You don't make much long-term progress by being innovative, so perhaps your best bet is to copy some moderately successful cults and hope that power won't corrupt you. The Hare Krishnas are a good template -- just avoid the racketeering, mail fraud, murder, and child abuse, and you should do fine.
1ChristianKl
I don't think it's even helpful to model them in that way. Your list for example doesn't contain a point for "community". It doesn't consider the need for charismatic leaders. There not much reason to focus on issues like contraception because a good new ideology can spread much faster if the community can recruit well and give new members a lot of value.

This seems like a promising direction. So let's say that by religion I mean a useful meme. The meme consists of a doctrine. That is, a collection of statements regarding human belief or action. A person infected with the meme lives in accordance with the doctrine. The doctrine is designed to cause a useful effect, apart from its own flourishing. The effect is caused by changes in behavior of the people infected by the meme. The effect need not be explicitly stated within the doctrine. This a broad definition of religion, as it doesn't require that ... (read more)

1ChristianKl
I think Effective Altruism fits the eight criteria you gave. I don't think rationality!CFAR currently has all eight at the moment but I think there a good chance that it will get them in the future. In both cases calling them religions is likely not helpful.

Unfortunately, I can't give a good definition for this except by example. Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Daoism, Hinduism, Atheism. I suppose that it might even be possible to ask the questions assuming that science is a religion. The focus of the questions is intended to be on the engineering and social aspects, rather than on a question like "Should Atheism be considered a religion?" I understand that the vagueness makes this a less than perfect delineation of a topic.

5VoiceOfRa
Atheism shouldn't be thought of as a (single) religion for the same reason non-apples aren't a (single) type of fruit.
0ChristianKl
Do you consider New Atheism the same religion as Communist Atheism in the former Soviet Union? Other questions: Is Effective Altruism a religion? Is Intentional Insights? Is Yoga a religion? Is the Landmark forum? The social aspects of Islam that regulates how inheritance and child support payments are supposed to work is different than Buddhism which as a religion doesn't care for that and might as David Chapman suggests not include any ethical imperatives. Before you engineer something you have to decide on what kind of thing you actually want to engineer. Given that you said you are working on a conlang, it's useful for you to take a mental step back and ask whether the word religion is a useful word for thinking about the domain you want to talk about.

How do I do that? Is it sufficient to edit a web address into the text of the old and new threads?

1ChristianKl
Yes. If you want to put the link behind LessWrong in a comment you have to write [LessWrong](http://lesswrong.com). I think for the topline post it's html LessWrong

You're all getting into some really interesting material here, and I think that it has significance beyond the scope of conlangs. I didn't want it to get lost, or ignored by non-conlangers, here, so I started a new thread for it, called "The value of ambiguous speech". This isn't to say that it wouldn't be great to see more discussion of the application of ambiguity to Ithkuil, but I didn't want you to miss out on the wider thread if your attention was focused here.

Update: ChristianKl pointed out to me that I should put a forward link to the ne... (read more)

Sounds like a good addition to my reading list, although I just looked at her books on Amazon and the prices on most of them are outrageous (I couldn't sell a book for $28, let alone $280). But with luck it might be possible to dig up a list of the basic primitives, with commentary, on the internet somewhere.

Perhaps a special sort of quote symbol used to highlight metaphors?

All good points, and among the strengths of conlangs in general. It still amazes me that past efforts at reforming English spelling, like President Roosevelt's, weren't accepted.

I understand the temptation. From the beginning I wanted to scrap parts of the alphabet and start over. From the pedagogical perspective, accepting the fact that children have to learn 4 versions of the same alphabet (capital and non-capital, print and cursive), makes me feel like I'm condoning torture. The only common English uses for the capitals are to set off sentence beginnings and proper nouns, both of which could be handled differently. And now that we're beyond the days of manual typesetting, the only justification for print fonts is that they'... (read more)

3ChristianKl
I don't think there a real reason why kids have to learn cursive these days. When I write notes I write print letters myself and my notes are much easier to read.

Sorry, I don't have a link for it. The result is just something that I remember reading about many years ago. I looked at the link that redding posted and while it probably isn't the same paper (I think I read about this before 2011) the result seems to match what I remember. There's a possibility that if the linked paper could be retrieved, then whatever I read may be in the bibliography, although I don't know if I'd recognize it as such.

Agreed. This was one of my more painful realizations, that I might have to do more than one iteration of the conlang before developing a finished product, because there will be no way to understand the flaws in the first version well enough to correct them until after learning to speak it fluently.

I've looked into the subject of ontologies (I did research on knowledge base design years ago). The problem wasn't finding ontologies, but finding non-arbitrary ontologies. That is, no matter how one ontology categorized entities, you could always find another that categorized them differently, and no non-arbitrary reason to select one over the other. And I didn't want to give in to the temptation to just choose one and use it regardless. I finally gave up and decided that treating each concept in isolation (for the purpose of dictionary building) was better than using an ontology that some users might find highly counter-intuitive.

1ChristianKl
What do you mean with that sentence? That you want to use the ontology of naive English? If we would have a name for 75 that's isolated from the name for other numbers it would be quite hard to do math. Ordering enities into categories provides the possibility to systematize them instead of making everything a special case. If you look at Lojban's place system is a huge mess because it has specific rules for the places of every single gismu. When it comes to feelings, I think the distinction of feelings/emotions/moods and physical sensations (pain/warmth etc) is highly useful. It makes a language more difficult to learn to have more distinctions but it makes the language more functional. A person gains something when they learn it.

I took a look at Cniglic. It seems similar to an idea that I noted as a candidate for an eventual add-on, to use diacritic marks as emotion indicators. The problem that this was intended to solve is that it seems overly limiting to be restricted to the one emotion indicator "!", and to have to put it at the end of the sentence. I much prefer the idea of having many such indicators, and being able to apply them freely throughout sentences. Implementing them as optional diacritic marks above vowels seemed like the best bet. But I haven't gone ... (read more)

-1Lumifer
These are called emoji :-)
0ChristianKl
The interesting thing with that proposal is that it's possible to apply it directly to english.
0ChristianKl
Then how do they get communicated verbally?
0polymathwannabe
In Korean, one way to mark emotion is to harden a consonant so the word sounds more emphatic.

The problem that I see with this is that people are basically lazy-brained. Even if a language requires that you choose a final particle that indicates evidentiality, people will just not use it. For example, if the written form of a language requires that a sentence end with ".", "?" or "!", and each one is an evidential particle, then tomorrow someone on the internet will say "By the way everyone, I'm tired of doing all of this evidentiality stuff when I don't need to, so I'm just going to write '_' at the end of all ... (read more)

4ChristianKl
Actually ".", "?" and "!" are illoctutionary operators. Sentence have a different meaning if you use a different one in English. Yet we don't see anybody writing _ because he doesn't want to specify one of the three. When it comes to the sentence "You are angry" I don't like the ugly copula. At the same time I still don't write "You angry" instead to have less effort because I'm lazy. After reading Science and Sanity I started to accidently drop the copula from time to time and write "there" instead of "there's" but the conventions of the English language still encourage me to not modify the language and write proper English. In Chinese and Esperanto you can say "It rains" in one word. In English it would be easier to say "Rains" but that wouldn't be correct English and lazyness is not enough to get people to make that change. . I think you underrate the usefulness of evidentials because English doesn't have them.Via Saphir Worf it also will get easier to think in evidentials when you have a language that does them by default. I don't think you will get people to adopt a new language by focusing on the lowest common denominator. There's no reason to switch to another language that does roughly the same as English. Esperanto get's part of it's charm from the fact that it's speakers treasure it. It's the most successful conlang despite the fact that it uses nonascii letters. While there are nonascii alternatives, Esperanto speaker still value using the original characters.

Also, the topic is now up and running in the regular "discussion" area.

Since other replies are drifting in this direction, I'll reply to my own post with a comment about Heinlein's fictional conlang Speedtalk, to which Ithkuil has been compared. Like a lot of people, it was one of the ideas that got me interested in conlangs. But after a bit of research I concluded that it wasn't a fruitful direction to head in. I ran into some research in which the rate of information transmission of various natural languages was compared. It turns out that in languages that are spoken faster, as measured in phonemes per second, the info... (read more)

0Tem42
This doesn't seem likely to generalize reliably to specialist constructed languages. I believe that it is true it when it comes down to average people talking about everyday things, but specialist subjects use specialized jargon and a shared bank of knowledge to communicate very complicated ideas very quickly. As a simple example, words like xor and nand, once they are fully understood and become automatic, do increase the rate of information transmission; likewise introducing the concepts behind 'bacteria', 'molecule', and 'atom' results in much quicker communication about a certain aspect of the world. If you are constructing a language to hold rational debate, it does make sense to increase information transfer by expecting, and teaching, the language learners to match complex concepts with simple words. This should mean, in practice, more information per phoneme per second in the targeted areas. While there will be a trade-off between time spent learning the framework and ability to communicate quickly, most rationalists are happy to spend time learning useful frameworks.
1ChristianKl
I'm interested into that research. Can you link it?
9ChristianKl
I think a core feature of a new conlang should be that it has a systematized way to express concepts. After making my first draft of a language I decided to dig deeper into modern applied ontology. I would recommend Barry Smith's and Katherine Munn's Applied Ontology: An Introduction. The better you understand the ontological structure of the world the better you will be able to design a language that can precisely describe the ontological structure of the world. If you have a sentence like "Four plus five is nine" that's very hard to transmit in a language like Pirahã that doesn't have a word for four but has only "one, two and many". It might be able to say two-two for four and two-two-one for five but it's really hard to express the sentence. I think English does have cases where it's a bit like Pirahã. We have four cardinal directions and if we want to go in a 45° angle we say north-east. Base 10 is integrated into our language in a way that we can't simply switch to base 12 or base 16 when we want to do so on a whim. Another quite horrible case is the English word of "feel". It mixes so many different cases together. You don't have a similar distinction as between "see" and "look" for feel. Feel get's used both to thing inside your own body and outside. Láadan has: loláad = to perceive internally, to feel a mental state or emotion, perceive with the heart (metaphorically). Passive internal feeling. "I feel sad." lowitheláad = to feel, as if directly, another's feelings (pain/joy/ anger/grief/surprise/ etc.); to be empathetic, without the separation implied in empathy dama = to touch, to feel with the skin. Active touching, feeling. "I am feeling the texture of the yarn." (see láad oyanan, passive touch) náril = to feel internally, to fix your internal attention actively upon something, to-continue-to-present-time. Active internal feeling. "I am feeling angry." (see loláad, passive internal feeling) láad oyanan = to perceive with the skin, to feel something

I looked at the Wikipedia page for Ithkuil. It doesn't seem to be geared towards preventing cognitive errors, so much as packing as much information as possible into as few phonemes as possible. For most of them I can't see the point. In English I can say "Trees are green." in a few simple words. From the sound of it, in Ithkuil I'd have to pack in so much information about the trees that it would take me an hour to figure out how to write the sentence. Is the set of trees spatially contiguous, in a specific but unnamed forest? Or is this t... (read more)

I have a number of evidential categories available for use, as well as some relating to certainty, which I view as a separate issue (source versus certainty). But I hadn't put any thought into making their use mandatory. There are certainly advantages to making it impossible to hide information by making the inclusion of some information carrying categories necessary. But it seems to me that not all possible information is going to be relevant to all possible statements or circumstances, and that forcing everyone to always include evidentials, even when... (read more)

3ChristianKl
In English every sentence ends in ".", "?" or "!". You can't simply omit those because otherwise a new sentence won't start. I think it's good for evidentials to end sentence's in the same way. Recently I develed a bit into radical honesty. Radical honesty proclaims that you say what's on your mind. However instead of saying: "You are angry", you can say "I imagine you are angry". The usage of "I imagine" makes the conversation much nicer. It's part of what stops people practicing radical honesty from being assholes. At the same time "I imagine" costs four syllables. The direct translation into German is even more clumsy: "Ich stelle mir vor, dass". It would be much nicer if the language integrates evidentials by default.

It sounds like you were trying to construct an a-priori conlang, in which the meaning of any word could be determined from its spelling, because the spelling is sufficient to give the word exact coordinates on a concept graph of some sort. I thought about this approach some time ago, but was never able to find a non-arbitrary concept graph to use, or a system of word formation that didn't create overly long or unpronounceable words.

I was originally thinking about including non-ascii characters, but eventually compromised on retaining English capitals inst... (read more)

Hi,

I'm a middle-aged computer scientist/philosopher, who specialized in artificial intelligence and machine learning back in the stone age when I was getting my degrees. Since then I've done a bit of work in probabilistic simulations and biologically inspired methods of problem solving, mostly for industry. I've recently finished writing a book about politics, although God knows if I'll ever sell a copy. Now I'm into a bit of everything. Politics. Economics.

I came here looking for input into a conlang project that I'm working on. Basically it involve... (read more)

1ChristianKl
I do have a conlang draft. A few thoughts based on my conlang thinking: Loglan/Lojban is a language were math was an afterthought. That's likely mistake. If you look at a concept like grandfather, using the word "grand" doesn't make much sense. I think it's better to say something like father-one for grandfather, father-two for great-grandfather. The same way the boss of your boss should be boss-one. Having a grammer in which relationships can be expressed well is very valuable. I think that loglan attempt to build on existing roots of the widely spoken languages is flawed because it allows less freedom organizing the language effectively. It would be good to have a lot of concepts with 3 letters instead of 5. In my language draft I started to take concept of graph theory for naming relationships (the structure of the words matters but the actual word is provisional): bei node in same graph cai node parent doi node children beiq relative caiq parent doiq son/daughter bei person employed in the same company caiß boss (person with authority to order) doiß direct (person who can be ordered) Once you understand that structure and learn the new word "fuiq" for sibling, you can guess that a direct coworker is called fuiß. Of the in a graph notes that share the same parent note are "fui". I like grouping concepts this way where I can go from parent to son/daughter simply by going one forward in the alphabet and replace "c" with "d" and "a" with "o" ("i" get's skipped because the word ends in "i"). I did use a similar principle for naming numbers: ba 0 ce 1 di 2 fo 3 gu 4 ha 5 je 6 For the number I also gave adding a "q" meaning. It turn the number into base 16. Base 16 numbers are later quite useful if you want to make an expression like north-east. At the moment pilots use phrases based on the clock to navigate: "There's a bird at 2 o'clock." It's much better to bake numbers more centrally into the language. ---------------------------------------- In case you