All of mbitton24's Comments + Replies

To clarify, I also don't think EA has much potential as a social movement even if marketed properly. Specific EA beliefs are much more spreadable memes down the line IMO.

Yup - although in the case of EA, that's still likely to be a very slow process. This isn't the sort of thing that can go viral. It takes months or years of cultivating before someone transfers from complete outsider to core member.

0ChristianKl
I don't think that's a problem. We don't need to think in terms of corporate quarter results but are free to think more long-term. Focusing on quick fixes isn't what successful movement building is about.

If you're talking about recruiting new EAs, it sounds like you mean people that agree enough with the entire meme set that they identify as EAs. Have there been any polls on what percentage of self-identifying EAs hold which beliefs? It seems like the type of low-hanging fruit .impact could pick off. That poll would give you an idea of how common it is for EAs to believe only small portions of the meme set. I expect that people agree with the majority of the meme set before identifying as EA. I believe a lot more than most people and I only borderline identify as EA.

0ChristianKl
If you formulate a bunch of question we could add the poll question to the next LW census. In general formulatting an EA census might also be a worthwhile project.

So you expect movement building / outreach to be a lot less successful than community building ("inreach", if you will)?

Yes, especially if the same strategies are expected to accomplish both. They're two very different tasks.

Some of this comes down to what counts as an "EA". What kind of conversion do we need to do, and how much? I also think I'll be pretty unsuccessful at getting new core EAs, but what can I get? How hard is it? These are things I'd like to know, and things I believe would be valuable to know.

I think you can con... (read more)

0Peter Wildeford
I wouldn't say the same tasks will work equally well for both. But I do think either would have spillover effects for the other. Right now, it seems we're focused on community building, though. ~ I'd be interested in how much overlap there are between these groups. It never was my intention to try and convince people of the entire meme set at once, but I wouldn't rule it out as implausible. I think better understanding these channels (how people come to these beliefs) is most important.

I'm saying it helps with retention but barely at all with recruitment - and that it may even get in the way of recruitment of casual EAs. I don't think Skillshare favours will make people want to self-identify as EA. Only a minority of people even require the sorts of favours being offered.

0Peter Wildeford
To clarify, Skillshare was not created with new member recruitment in mind.
0ChristianKl
The best way to recruit is to have people who are passionate enough about a subject that they tell their friends.

"A stronger community for the effective altruist movement should better encourage existing EAs to contribute more and better attract new people to consider becoming EA. By building the EA Community, we hope to indirectly improve recruitment and retention in the effective altruist movement, which in turn indirectly results in more total altruistic effort, in turn resulting in more reduced suffering and increased happiness."

I'm going to predict that .impact struggles to meet this objective.

I think you're taking a naive view of how movement building... (read more)

0ChristianKl
It costs them huge advertising budgets and gets less effective as time goes by. For-profit organization actually do this because they don't have a cause to rally around. Making more money for shareholders isn't giving anyone a feeling of community. Steve Jobs got rid of focus groups telling him what the people want and build products to fit his own standards. As a result Apple has managed to develop a strong brand. But you might switch to self identifying yourself as EA because there are people on Skillshare doing nice things for you without asking for something in return. That self identification will then improve the chances that you are doing other things to advance EA. It helps with retention.
2Peter Wildeford
I think "core" EAs understand and are comfortable with that, so they won't feel alienated. - Some of this comes down to what counts as an "EA". What kind of conversion do we need to do, and how much? I also think I'll be pretty unsuccessful at getting new core EAs, but what can I get? How hard is it? These are things I'd like to know, and things I believe would be valuable to know. - So you expect movement building / outreach to be a lot less successful than community building ("inreach", if you will)?

Cool. Will there be a lot of overlap with Intuition Pumps and Other Tools for Thinking? Based on your description, it sounds like Dennett just wrote this book for you.

7diegocaleiro
Actually I wrote it before he did, while trying to simulate him. It was great confirmation of my simulation skills when his book was published, exactly because there is some uncanny overlap. In the beggining of my book I talk about this a bit, it was one of three coincidences which gave me full retrospective confidence in the project. I can simulate Dennett, the question that remains unanswered so far is, can I install that ability into other minds through words?

You're right. I think scientific thinkers can sometimes misinterpret skepticism as meaning that nothing short of peer-reviewed, well-executed experiments can be considered evidence. I think sometimes anecdotal evidence is worth taking seriously. It isn't the best kind of evidence, but it falls above 0 on the continuum.

The good news is that our higher cognitive abilities also allow us to overcome depression in many situations. In Stumbling on Happiness, Daniel Gilbert explains how useful it is that we can rationalize away bad events in our lives (such as rejection). This capability, which Gilbert refers to as our psychological immune system, explains why people are able to bounce back from negative events much more quickly than they expect to.

I think speaking in terms of probabilities also clears up a lot of epistemological confusion. "Magical" thinkers tend to believe that a lack of absolute certainty is more or less equivalent to total uncertainty (I know I did). At the same time, they'll understand that a 50% chance is not a 99% chance even though neither of them is 100% certain. It might also be helpful to point out all the things they are intuitively very certain of (that the sun will rise, that the floor will not cave in, that the carrot they put in their mouth will taste like c... (read more)

1[anonymous]
Not just magical thinkers. I heard Massimo Pigliucci making the same "this isn't definitive and therefore it tells us nothing" argument on the most recent Rationally Speaking podcast.

"Keeping busy" is based mainly on my personal experience and from what I've heard other people say. But in the book Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience (which I didn't cite because I assume you're familiar with it), it's suggested based on self-reports on subjective wellbeing that people are, on average, happier while at work than they are in their leisure time - even though they don't feel as if this is the case.

In Stumbling on Happiness, Daniel Gilbert also suggests that when making decisions about the future, we rely on our own specula... (read more)

0Simon Pepin Lehalleur
I tend to disagree with the idea that a depressed individual should seek flow activities. Indeed, when I raised up the notion of Flow with my therapist (treatment for depressed moods and anxiety), she was familiar with it but observed that the basic elements of flow : concentration, accurate and adaptive sense of challenge, internal motivation... were the first victims of depression and that I should not expect to get into flow states before I got those back !

If you start a PR campain about AI risk that results into bringing a lot of luddites into the AGI debate, it might be harder for MIRI to convince AI researchers to treat UFAI as a serious risk not easier because the average AI person might think how the luddites oppose AGI for all the wrong reasons. He's not a luddite so why should he worry about UFAI?

Fair enough. I still believe there could be benefits to gaining wider support but I agree that this is an area that will be mainly determined by the actions of elite specialized thinkers and the very power... (read more)

Finding flow activities seems to be a good one.

Also - keeping busy?

-1JonahS
Are you speaking based on personal experience, or speculating?

Oprah doesn't need everyone to like her. She wants the largest viewership possible. MIRI doesn't need everyone to support it. It wants the most supporters possible.

They don't need to appeal to everyone but they probably should appeal to a wider audience of people than they currently do (evidenced by the only ~10 FAI researches in the world) - and a different audience requires a different presentation of the ideas in order to be optimally effective.

I don't think pointing new people toward Less Wrong would be as effective as just creating a new pitch just fo... (read more)

1ChristianKl
It don't think that's the case. MIRI cares a lot more about convincing the average AI researcher than it cares about convincing the average person who watches CNN. If you start a PR campain about AI risk that results into bringing a lot of luddites into the AGI debate, it might be harder for MIRI to convince AI researchers to treat UFAI as a serious risk not easier because the average AI person might think how the luddites oppose AGI for all the wrong reasons. He's not a luddite so why should he worry about UFAI? If you look at environmental policy reducing mercury pollution and reducing CO2 emissions are both important priorities. If you just look at what's talked about in mainstream media you will find a focus on CO2 emissions. I think few people know how good the policy that the EPA policy under Obama about mercury pollution has been. The EPA did a really great move to reduce mercury pollution but it didn't hit major headlines. The policy wasn't a result of a press campaign. It mostly happened silently in the background. On the other hand the fight about CO2 emissions is very intensive and the Obama administration didn't get much done on that front. That's the sort of thing that's better not said in public if you are actually serious about making an impact. If you want to say it say it in a way that takes a full paragraph of multiple sentences and that's not easily quoted by someone at gawker who writes an article about you in five years when you do have a public profile. Bonus points for using vobulary that allows people on LW to understand you express that idea but not the average person who reads a gawker article. I also something that contradicts the goal you layed out above. You said you wanted to spread the meme: "Belief without evidence is bad." If you start pushing memes because you like the effect and not because they are supported by good evidence you don't get "Belief without evidence is bad."

I think we might be using different definitions of "radical" and "moderate, socially acceptable." I'm not referring to things that massively impact society, but to things that clash with widely held values and attitudes.

3D printing doesn't strike me as an idea most people negatively associate with "radical." More importantly, even if it was, it is possible to present a "radical" or "weird" or "unfamiliar" idea in a way that it appears not to clash with people's values and attitudes.

That's what I s... (read more)

0ChristianKl
I agree that FAI outreach is hard PR wise. Terminator did succeed in putting memes about an evil skynet into public consciousness but those memes and not really the ones we want even if they make some people opposed to AGI research. The kinds of memes we want to push are more complex. I also don't know if we actually have decided which memes we want to push. I personally don't know enough about FAI to be confident in deciding which memes benefits the agenda of MIRI and FHI. If MIRI wants more PR the first step would be to articulate what kind of memes it actually wants to transmit to a broader public. But we don't want "dissent". Cooperation in the Makerspaces that someone like Bre plays a large role are much better than dissent. Focusing on increasing dissent is pointless if you don't provide alternatives. In the 21st century news sources such as the Economist and Foreign Policy that don't use pictures to illustrate their stories but write for a high level audience increased their subscriber while outlets that try to pander to everyone like the New York Times lost readership and had to lay off many journalists. As far as written text goes the people who try to pander to everyone did mostly lose in the last decade. Mainstream media lost a lot of it's power over the last two decades. Getting a book recommend by Tim Ferriss in the Random show is much more valuable than getting a book recommended by the New York Time. Tim Ferriss recommendation might have more strength than anyone besides Oprah. But even when we look at Oprah, does she try to pander to mainstream views in the usual sense of the word? I don't think she does. A lot of people don't like Oprah. It would be a losing move for Oprah to avoid talking about spirituality in a sense that makes some people hate her. If Oprah would go that way she would lose her base. If you try to appeal to everyone you will appeal to no one. If you don't want to make a TV station that fiances itself by selling advertising

That sounds naive. If you ask yourself whether there disinformation in the coverage of topic X in the mainstream media, the answer is "yes" no matter the issue. Journalist write stories under tight timetables without much time to fact check. They are also under all sorts of other pressures that aren't about telling the truth as it happens to be.

Yes, it's ubiquitous, but some fields and issues are more affected than others, usually due to politicization. Tight timetables may apply to all stories but not all pressures do.

From what I personally

... (read more)
3ChristianKl
I don't think trying to be moderate instead of radical is the right way to think. If you can give a journalist a story about how a radical movement does X and polarizes the world, than you are giving that journalist what he wants. That's sort of what I did when giving QS presswork. Take 3D-printer guys like Bre Pettis. Does the average person care about having a 3D-printer at home? No, the average person doesn't. Yet Bre is a master at telling a story about how bringing the means of production finally to the average person so that the means of the production aren't in the hands of capitalists but in the hands of the people. That's not the only story he tells. If you look at his Ted talk he begins with getting the people by talking about the school system. He begins by saying that you can't teach creativity by teaching to the test. That's a meme that resonates with a bunch of people. Then he tells a story about how the maker bot helps people express their creativity. The next meme he pushes is that if you make something yourself it's yours. It's better than buying it off the shelf. He brings back education and announces the MakerBot as the solution for the flawed education system. Half way into the talk he says he dropped out of school and recommends kids to do the same, then he changes subject again. Later he talks about how teachers need a backround plan when parents come into the school and complain that the childs are having fun because of the MakerBots and that the school administrator should be won for the project and be able to tell the parents what bureaucratic standards are fulfilled by the project. Bre Pettis manages to beat most 21st century musicians at being cool. I've seen him multiple times live on stage and the way he works the room is amazing. Bre's image does not consist mainly of moderate, socially acceptable ideas. I talk lately on LW about the status of intelligence people and talked about standing our ground. Bre is the perfect example of ho

I believe this is pretty standard in media, communications, and journalism-ish programs. They don't call it "critical thinking" but they are definitely clear about the bias and tricks.

I think the reason for the downvotes is that people on LW have generally already formulated their ethical views past the point of wanting to speculate about entirely new normative theories.

Your post probably would have received a better reaction had you framed it as a question ("What flaws can you guys find in a utilitarian theory that values the maximization of the amount of computation energy causes before dissolving into high entropy?") rather than as some great breakthrough in moral reasoning.

As for constructive feedback, I think Creutzer's r... (read more)

Jonah, do you think uncertainty about how to prioritize charities and causes is an argument for centralizing or for diversifying your donations?

Upvoted.

I meant to say that if you believe a scientific claim to be legitimate, there should/are going to be implications of that on other parts of your worldview. When we misjudge what the implications of a belief are, we can believe it while simultaneously rejecting something it implies. (That's what reductio ad absurdum's are for.)

I was under the impression that GPS was such a technology. I also don't see much room for reasonably believing in evolutionary medicine without accepting macro-evolution - but that's a bit of a stretch from my original point. After struggling to find examples, I'm going to downshift my probability of there being many around.

-3Eugine_Nier
We also tend to overestimate how much parts of our worldview support each other, or as this quote says: ‌ GPS requires corrections for general relativity, it's somewhat of a stretch to say that implies the big bang. Well, according to the wikipedia entry for evolutionary medicine the key concepts are: These all involve at most micro-evolution and the observation that humans are well designed for an ancestral environment, neither of which YEC's reject to my knowledge.

Right, tougher debate moderators could make it clearer what each candidate really believes by reducing deception and vagueness, but probably wouldn't have any effect on making straightforward dumb-but-popular views any less popular.

Good point, thanks. Skepticism of specific scientific claims is fully consistent with a "pro-science" outlook. I would maintain that people rejecting legitimate scientific claims often are inconsistent, though. Case in point, Young Earth Creationists that completely trust technology and medication that could only work if the scientific case for YEC is false.

7Eugine_Nier
They aren't rejecting "legitimate scientific claims", they're disputing which claims are legitimate. Can you give an example of such a technology and/or medication?

Calling anti-vaccination people "anti-science" is a transparently bad persuasion tactic. Leave a social line of retreat.

Also, it probably isn't even true that they're anti-science. It's more likely their stances on science are inconsistent, trusting it to varying degrees in different situations depending on the political and social implications of declaring belief.

6Jayson_Virissimo
Agreed. Science isn't a package you have to accept as one huge clump. There is nothing inconsistent about affirming some scientific claims and denying others, especially if you also believe that some sciences are more reliable at arriving at the truth than others (which very few scientists themselves would deny).

I'm not sure it would lead to better politicians as much as would it lead to politicians adapting their bullshit skills to better fit the new interview set up.

Many of the bullshit explanations politicians give are perceived as perfectly acceptable to the wider public.

MODERATOR: Should gay marriage be legal?

POLITICIAN: Nope.

MODERATOR: Why not?

POLITICIAN: It goes against the teachings of my religion. It says in passage X:YZ of the Bible that homosexuality is a sin. I refuse to go against the command of God in my time in office.

That answer is fine to many, ma... (read more)

1ChristianKl
Some of them are, but a lot of the them aren't. Opposing gay marriage because you think it's violates a your religion is a straightfoward thing. There no lying or deception involved if the politician fulfills his promise and votes against gay marriage after the election. If you don't like those politicans you can elect other ones. The debate did it's job of accurately informing the voters about the politicians. On the other hand a lot of things politicians evade questions and don't accurately inform the voters about their positions.
2A1987dM
Well, passage X+1:YZ+6 says the same thing about tattoos. (Which is particularly hilarious when people get a tattoo of the former passage.)

"In general, this suggests that we should give relatively more weight to tastes and values that we expect to be more universal among civilizations across the multiverse."

This is a pretty interesting idea to me, Brian. It makes intuitive sense but when would we apply it? Can it only be used as a tiebreaker? It's difficult for me to imagine scenarios where this consideration would sway my decision.