To put it simply: everything we do with a still mind is pure joy (based on the doctrinal assumption and some personal experience). Craving is turbulence in the mind. We crave to be free from suffering or satisfy a desire. As long as there is craving there is seeking for pleasure (or avoiding unpleasantness) to still the mind (at least temporarily, to have a glimpse of joy the still mind entails). Pleasure is not permanent joy (happiness) only spasmodic glimpse (if at all). So craving and pleasure are interrelated. The Buddhist doctrine states that permanent joy is possible if we get rid of craving or still the mind.
What concerns great music, art, science and so on - they mostly come from deep absorption and one-pointed concentration to the point of detachment from everything else where craving subsides and the mind becomes still (at least for some time). Stillness of the mind or the absence of craving are the same.
This is a fascinating dialogue, thank you for sharing it! I want to jump on board of the Reassuring Voice and add some comments.
First, nirvana is not extinction of a person, life or experience. What is extinguished is suffering (dukkha) and its cause - craving (tanha). It's the extinction of the fire of ignorance, clinging and aversion - not of consciousness or life. The result is described as the highest bliss, supreme security and freedom. All are positive terms. It is the end of problematic mode of being and not of being itself.
Second, the first noble truth doesn't say "everything is suffering". It says that life as conditioned by clinging (upadana) is pervaded by suffering (dukkha). It's a statement about a process (clinging to the five aggregates), not a condemnation of pure sensory experience itself.
Eliminating the 'knots' (craving/clinging) is not like trimming a tree branch by branch until nothing is left. It's like untying a knot in a hose. Once the knot (the obstruction) is gone, the water (life, energy, consciousness) can flow freely, without distortion or blockage. The goal isn't to stop the flow; it's to remove the distortions that cause the "painful pressure" and "blocked functionality".
Third, the Buddhist path is about cultivating positive qualities, not just negating negatives (even more so!) The four noble truth, the noble eightfold path is a training in skillful action, not inaction. It cultivates: wisdom (prajñā), ethical conduct (śīla) and meditative absorption (samādhi). These states represent a re-orientation from "scratching itches" (craving-driven action) to skillful, compassionate and clear engagement with the world.
Last, on present day Extinctionists R is right to dismiss them. Extinctionism mistakes the problem (suffering born of craving and ignorance) for the vehicle of experience (life itself) and seeks to destroy the vehicle to solve the problem. The Buddhist solution is to repair the flawed navigation system of the driver (the mind), not to crash the car.
Your dialogue beautifully resolves the issue. The 'knots' metaphor is perfect. We aim to untie the painful, self-reinforcing knots of craving and aversion so that the muscle of our being can be strong, flexible, and capable of healthy, responsive tension - not perpetually knotted up in suffering, nor limp and atrophied in a pseudo-nirvana of inaction (stupor really).
The goal isn't the extinction of life but the transcendence of a specific flawed operating system (the 'itch-and-scratch' or 'knot-forming' system) and its replacement with one of wisdom and compassion. That is the opposite of extinctionism, it's about making life actually work.
This is a crucial question, thank you for asking it! It challenges the model's boundaries and forces us to be precise about what we mean by 'suffering' (dukkha) and 'craving' (tanha).
Short Answer: The model does not necessarily deny the existence of such pleasures (they would be in a different category though, more on this later). It invites us to inspect them more closely. Are they truly free from the mechanism of 'scratching a sore', or do they contain subtle elements of it? The framework suggests a spectrum rather than a binary.
Creating great art or mathematics often involves immense struggle (a 'sore'), but the moment of breakthrough can feel like a transcendent release from that very struggle. Yet, the appreciation of the final product by a still mind might be different - a pure non-contrived joy.
Therefore, the model doesn't automatically categorize all pleasure on the same level (there is a non-contrived joy which is beyond the scope of pleasure). What it does: it asks us to discern the underlying mental state. A huge portion of what we chase is relief-driven ('scratching'), and that a state of peace ('no sore') is superior and can itself be profoundly positive. So the pleasures you list could sit anywhere on this spectrum between pleasure and non-contrived joy. The final litmus test is whether there is craving or not.
Thank you for this comment! It's an excellent response that gets to the heart of the matter. You're absolutely right to focus on the metaphor, as its validity determines the model's usefulness.
Let me clarify the intended meaning, because I think we use 'pleasure' in two different senses, which is exactly what the metaphor is trying to reveal.
The metaphor argues that what we often chase as 'pleasure' is the first kind: the intense signal of a problem being temporarily solved. The second kind - the peace of a problem-free system - is quieter but constitutes a higher quality of existence.
A way to test this: would you choose to have a mild chronic itch in order to enjoy scratching it? Probably not. The pleasure of scratching 100% depends on unpleasantness of the itch. The pleasure is fundamentally parasitic on the problem. If you could magically have no-itch state, you would certainly choose that! This reveals that at a meta-level we value the problem-free state more, even if scratch provides a momentary peak experience of pleasure.
Translating this to worldly desires: the model suggests our worldly cravings often work the same way. The pleasure of satisfying a craving (for food, distraction, status, etc.) is often most intense when it relieves a background state of lack, anxiety, or boredom (the 'sore'). The point is not to never scratch an itch - that's impractical, the insight is:
So you point is valid, if we equate 'pleasure' with raw hedonic intensity. The model invites us to consider a wider perspective of well-being, where freedom from the need to scratch is superior (if less intensive) outcome.
I also would like to clarify a point about mindfulness meditation and insight practice (vipassana). As they are sometimes mixed together. And while insight practice works, mindfulness, a stripped down version of it, doesn't.
I'll start by referencing a paper mentioned in the post, namely "Meditation experience is associated with differences in default mode network activity and connectivity." [7] There the authors have shown that Theravada monks clearly shut down the DMN by what they call "mindfulness meditation". And describe three methods of mindfulness meditation: breathing meditation, Choiceless Awareness (the term coined by Krishnamurti Jiddu), and loving-kindness (metta) meditation.
That might confuse things a bit. But let's look at the basic source for monk's training - Pali Canon. The basic instruction for insight and concentration practices in the tradition of Theravada is Satipatthana Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta which are unfortunately translated as "The Foundations of Mindfulness" and "Mindfulness of Breathing". The word "sati", which is translated as "mindfulness", literally means "recollection". And it is a term there that is used in developing concentration.
What do those texts say about practice? Is it only recollection of breathing and awareness? No. They are clearly set to contemplate the Four Noble Truths, the Five Hindrances, the Seven Factors for Awakening and so on. So they are loading contradictions in thinking to contemplate upon (e.g. "I suffer" / "Freedom from suffering is the goal", "I feel desire" / "Desirelessness is the goal", etc.). I would suggest that those act as koans to contemplate during practice. So both concentration is developed (samatha) and insight is cultivated (vipassana). In one practice!
So what does it say about the monks from the paper? First of all, they have selected monks who are awakened (who can switch off the DMN). Knowing the protocol of their practice they most likely have come to awakening through insight and concentration practices. And after that they can naturally abide in this place by just about any stimuli. But for the monks "mindfulness" means long-long years of vipassana and samatha practices. While for researchers it means the stripped down version of it (without accounting for the details how they reached that state)!
Long story short, mindfulness practice as noticing thoughts and sensations and coming back to awareness on itself seems to be not enough to shut down the DMN. It has to be full scale insight and concentration practices as described in the text (i.e. going through all the truths, factors, contemplating them, releasing attachments, etc.). And that's what monks from the paper supposedly did.
There is a good video with one illuminating comment (pinned), Does Mindfulness Lead to Persistent Nonduality? In the comment it is said that the traditional vipassana practice by itself has a missing component:
He [the Dalai Lama] essentially gave his blessing to the Goenka retreats but said he felt that there was a missing element. He advised practitioners to look back and try to find the one doing the meditation.
So basically the Dalai Lama recommended self-inquiry practice on top of vipassana.
Why I decided to articulate those nuances? I feel like most of the time people confuse mindfulness meditation with insight practice and do it for years (I did so myself). I hope that clarifies things a bit.
Not necessarily. There are two points of interest here. First, it depends what one means by meditation. If that's mindfulness meditation, there are studies that have shown that it doesn't deactivate the DMN. If we add here the fact that some people dedicate 4-8 hours per day to meditation that's a recipe for disaster as the ruminating network is working all those 4-8 hours under the hood. There is a useful post by Gary Weber, mindfulness meditation - religious vs secular - does it work? - new research that discusses this point.
Second, if the shift has occurred without the proper preparation (i.e. the "I" is not deconstructed enough) or suddenly during the insight practice, the DMN network might try to win control back and there will be a conflict as the DMN is not shut down. That might happen if awakening happens "out of the blue" and the ruminating network is strong. That might even lead to the Dark Night of the Soul. Here is another useful post by Gary, Dark Night of the Soul?...who/why/what to do.
The key point in both is that "I" has to be deconstructed enough, which means one has to learn to shut down the DMN properly. As even after awakening it might cause trouble if one didn't learn to shut it down. A book by Suzanne Segal, Collision with the Infinite is an example how a person might struggle to integrate awakening after it occurred.
So in the end I would guess (and please keep in mind that it's a speculation of a layman) that given the proper conditions it's not meditation itself that causes psychosis but the DMN that is hyperactive. The issue with mindfulness meditation is that it doesn't address the activity of the DMN.
Depression is a real challenge. It's difficult to explain what it is until you've been through one. I've found the method of self-inquiry to be of help (e.g. "Who is depressed/suffering/cannot move?", "Well, I am.", "Where does this I come from?" and keep looking for the source of the "I").
It is postulated that self-inquiry helps to deconstruct the "I" and as a result to pacify two subnetworks (of the DMN) that are responsible for building the images of "self in time" and "self and other" (as most thoughts are build around them). So it helps in reducing self-rumination and thoughts which are supporting the depressive state. There is a nice video on that topic - dealing with thoughts by Gary Weber.
Yes, I'm only re-quoting Wittgenstein from another book (Jay Garfield, The Fundamental Wisdom of the Middle Way), so my understanding is only approximate in that case, I could not process the Tractatus as it's way over my head. And I'll check the sequences.
A little example how one can apply this. I have near to zero expectation about this post being understood or liked (not that it doesn't matter at all, I'm serious enough to elaborate the concepts as best I can, but beyond this it's not under my control). I also know that disappointment is dependent upon expectation so they are both empty of intrinsic nature. Therefore, I'm not anxious about people liking that text, nor I'm disappointed if it's being disliked. In that case I see that disappointment and expectation are both empty. So I'm free from both!
What if it wasn't so? And my expectation was high (i.e. I would approach it like it had intrinsic value). I would be disappointed because of low karma. But how to get rid of that disappointment? It is to see that it's empty. How? To analyze that it depends on the expectation, and if I can let go of my expectation, I will be free from the disappointment.
And how does one let go of the expectation (or any negative feeling)? There are many ways. First, by observing one's mind impartially and seeing it clearly for what it is (what in Buddhism is called vipassana meditation). Second, I can imagine myself on my deathbed and ask the question, "How important would it be then?" Third, I can apply a technique like The Sedona Method. In this way I can see through my constructs on the conceptual level and the level of feeling and be free from them.
That's how the concept of emptiness might be used in practice.
Sorry to bother you again, but I was wrong about joy (pīti and sukha) all this time! They are mental factors in Buddhism, so they have three marks of existence: impermanence, suffering and no substantive nature. When I was writing I was thinking about the term ananda from Advaita tradition. Which is usually translated as bliss and concomitant with liberation. I thought they were synonymous. And they are not!
Buddhists don't use a positive term to describe that state, they only point to the unconditioned nature that results out of extinguishment of the fires of delusion, greed and hatred. Profound peace and freedom that results out of that extinguishment may be described as happiness. The happiness of release from craving. In one place they describe it as "the highest bliss" (parama sukha).
The stillness of the mind that I was referring to comes from Advaita tradition and called there sahaja sthiti (natural state or innate state) and may be partially experienced during the meditative absorption (samādhi). When the mind abides in the meditative absorption thoughts and craving cease and what is experienced is deep peace beyond description. I wrongly called it "joy". But it is called bliss in Advaita tradition and Buddhist tradition in general describes it in negative terms, i.e. the absence of craving, etc.
Therefore, what I meant by "joy" was the extinguishment of craving and the resulting "highest bliss" (parama sukha). And what I meant by "stillness of the mind" was the pointer to that natural unobscured abiding - called sahaja sthiti in Advaita, which finds its ultimate consummation in the realization of Nibbana in Buddhism.
To sum up. Stillness of the mind is bliss. Craving is turbulence in the mind. As long as there is craving there is seeking for pleasure (or avoiding unpleasantness) to still the mind. Satisfying pleasure is not bliss, only a spasmodic glimpse of it, a temporary relief. The highest bliss is possible if we reach effortless stillness of the mind by getting rid of craving. Whatever we do in that state of stillness is unblemished by craving and excessive thinking. Until then we are subject to craving of one kind or another.
So to answer your initial question in terms of the Buddhist doctrine: all pleasures are concomitant with suffering (for the unliberated and for the liberated the mechanism of craving is absent).