timtyler comments on Open Thread, April 15-30, 2013 - Less Wrong

4 Post author: diegocaleiro 15 April 2013 07:57PM

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Comment author: timtyler 22 April 2013 01:48:42AM -1 points [-]

If you have a maximiser of A, the ability to constrain that maximiser, and the ability to generate A, you can use it to maximise B by rewarding the production of B with A. If A = entropy and B = utility, Q.E.D.

That seems to simply be buck-passing. What does this gain us over simply maximizing B? If we can compute how to maximize a predicate like A, then what stops us from maximizing B directly?

You said you didn't see how having an entropy maximizer would help with maximizing utility. Having an entropy maximizer would help a lot. Basically maximizers are very useful things - almost irrespective of what they maximize.

If you know go, that's pretty similar to winning.

Pretty similar, yet somehow, crucially, not the same thing. [...]

Sure. I never claimed they were the same thing.

If you forbid passing, forbid suicide and aim to mimimize your opponent's possible moves, that would make a lot more sense - as a short description of a go-playing strategy.

Comment author: gwern 22 April 2013 02:00:17AM 3 points [-]

You said you didn't see how having an entropy maximizer would help with maximizing utility. Having an entropy maximizer would help a lot. Basically maximizers are very useful things - almost irrespective of what they maximize.

So maximizers are useful for maximizing? That's good to know.

Comment author: timtyler 22 April 2013 10:49:31AM *  -2 points [-]

That's trivializing the issue. The idea is that maximisers can often be repurposed to help other agents (via trade, slavery etc).

It sounds as though you originally meant to ask a different question. You can now see how maximizing entropy would be useful, but want to know what advantages it has over other approaches.

The main advantage I am aware of associated with maximizing entropy is one of efficiency. If you maximize something else (say carbon atoms), you try and leave something behind. By contrast, an entropy maximizer would use carbon atoms as fuel. In a competition, the entropy maximizer would come out on top - all else being equal.

It's also a pure and abstract type of maximisation that mirrors what happens in natural systems. Maybe it has been studied more.

Comment author: gwern 22 April 2013 04:37:53PM 0 points [-]

It sounds as though you originally meant to ask a different question. You can now see how maximizing entropy would be useful,

I already saw how it could be useful in a handful of limited situations - that's why I brought up the Go example in the first place!

but want to know what advantages it has over other approaches.

As it stands, it sounds like a limited heuristic and the claims about intelligence grossly exaggerated.