Rukifellth comments on Open Thread, July 1-15, 2013 - Less Wrong
You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.
You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.
Comments (342)
I personally regard this entire subject as a memetic hazard, and will rot13 accordingly.
Jung qbrf rirelbar guvax bs Bcra Vaqvivqhnyvfz, rkcynvarq ol Rqjneq Zvyyre nf gur pbaprcg juvpu cbfvgf:
Gur pbaprcg vf rkcynvarq nf n pbagenfg sebz gur pbairagvbany ivrj bs Pybfrq Vaqvivqhnyvfz, va juvpu gurer ner znal crefbaf naq gur Ohqquvfg-yvxr ivrj bs Rzcgl Vaqvivqhnyvfz, va juvpu gurer ner ab crefbaf.
V nfxrq vs gurer jrer nal nethzragf sbe Bcra Vaqvivqhnyvfz, be whfg nethzragf ntnvafg Pybfrq naq Rzcgl Vaqvivqhnyvfz gung yrnir BV nf gur bayl nygreangvir. Vpbcb Irggbev rkcynvarq vg yvxr guvf:
Gur rrevrfg cneg nobhg gur Snprobbx tebhc "V Nz Lbh: Qvfphffvbaf va Bcra Vaqvivqhnyvfz" vf gung gur crbcyr va gung tebhc gerng gur pbaprcg bs gurer orvat bayl bar crefba gur fnzr jnl gung Puevfgvnaf gerng gur pbaprcg bs n Tbq gung jvyy qnza gurve ybirq barf gb Uryy sbe abg oryvrivat va Uvz. Vg'f nf vs ab bar va gur tebhc ernyvmrf gur frpbaq yriry vzcyvpngvbaf bs gurer abg orvat nalbar ryfr, be znlor gurl qba'g rira pner.
I think it is true. Self awareness is not hardware (wetware, whatever-ware) dependent. Just upload yourself and everything would be just fine. You'll be on two places at the same time, but with no communications between your instances, the old and the new one.
The same situation here, only that you have more than one natural born upload. Many billion, in fact.
The naturalism leads to this (frightening) conclusion.
Doesn't that black box the process of uploading?
I am not sure what do you mean by this blackboxing.
But to think, that the process of consciousnesses will work inside a computer, but will not work inside some other human skull - is naive.
It should work either on both places or nowhere.
People respond to this with "My memories are crucial, they are my unique identifier!". Well, you can forget pretty much everything and you will feel the same way. Besides, at every moment that you are self aware, you are remembering different little pieces of everything, doesn't matter what exactly. Might be a memory of a total solar eclipse, millions have almost the same short movie in their heads. Nothing unique here,
The consciousnesses is a funny algorithm, running everywhere. This is why, you should care about the future and behave accordingly at the present time.
Black boxing is when a complicated process is skipped over in reasoning. You supposed that mind uploading was possible for the sake of argument, to support a conclusion outside of the argument.
I see no reason, why uploading would be impossible. As I see no reason, why interstellar traveling would be impossible.
I have no idea how to actually do both, but that's another matter.
If the naturalistic view is valid, it is difficult to see a reason why those two would be impossible. But if the Universe is a magic place, then of course. It's possible that they are both impossible due to some spell of a witch, or something.
Still, I do assign a small probability to the possibility, that the consciousnesses is something not entirely computable and therefor not executable on some model of a Turing machine. But then again, the probability for this I see quite negligible.
Does it matter what consciousness is made out of for mind uploading to be possible?
Of course. If some of us are right, the consciousness is an algorithm running on a substrate able to compute it.
Then, the transplantation to another substrate is sure possible. How difficult this copping actually is, I wonder.
That all, assuming no magic is involved here. No spirituality, no soul and no other holly crap.
But when we embrace the algorithmic nature of consciousness, intelligence, memories and so on, we lose the unique identifier, so dear to most otherwise rational people. Their mantra goes "You only live once!" or "Everyone is unique and unrepeatable person!". Yes, sure. So when I was born, a signal traveled across the Universe to change it from the place I could be born, to a place this possibility now expired for good? May I ask, is this signal faster then light? If it isn't ... well, it isn't good enough.
I am just an algorithm, being computed here and there, before and now.
I forgot to mention this, but I also tried my hand at writing an essay about this sort of thing: finding the physical manifestation of consciousness. If I could vouch for the rigor of it, I'd have posted it to the Facebook group already, but alas, I can't., though it may be of some use here.
Wait, so that's where the whole 'YOLO' thing/meme comes from? I notice that I am confused...
How does this square with chaos theory, which models behaviour that diverges greatly due to infinitesimal changes at the start?
What has it got to do with chaos theory?
How the identity of a single person squares with it? Wouldn't a tiny change convert me into somebody else?
What would you do on the hypothesis that this was true that you wouldn't do on the hypothesis that it was false?
Honestly? I'd start taking antidepressants, and then embark on a a life-long quest to destroy the Universe via high energy particle experiments, or perhaps an unfriendly AI.
I endorse this theory and it all adds up to normality: in the end, the theories that you offer as alternatives are all true. (I have not read anything other than your comment.)
How can they, if they're mutually exclusive?
Whew, Karma. Also, why did this get downvoted so much? I'd appreciate the skepticism a lot more in the form of an argument. (No, seriously, I'd appreciate skeptical argument way more than any abstract philosophical argument should be appreciated)
The belief that they are mutually exclusive is confusion.
I don't understand.
If there's only one person and everyone else is simulated in their minds then that simulation is powerful and uncontrollable enough that for all practical purposes they can act like there are other people.
The concept is unlike traditional solipsism, if that's what you're referring to?
I haven't read past what you posted but it seems identical to me.
This concept is unlike your example, because it is still possible for this one person carrying the simulation to create an offspring or clone, and it would in time become two separate people. Open Individualism states that if the one person carrying the simulation were to somehow reproduce themselves, there would still only be one person.
Past what I posted? Where are you?
In your head.
(Partially derot13ing for clarity:)
Nonsense on stilts. Next!
I like your phrasing, but how is this so?
I just have a robust memetic immune defence system that at once recognises the absurdity of the suggested viewpoint, and that apart from the warm fuzzies it may induce from contemplating the Deep Wisdom that "we are all One!", it has no implications for anticipated experiences.
I don't understand why everyone thinks this is such a good thing. I wouldn't have rot13'd this post if I thought this was a good thing.
Well, I don't think warm fuzzies from Deep (i.e. fake) Wisdom are a good thing. Does anyone here? I prefer to get mine from reality, or from fiction, not from the latter passed off as the former.
I mean, I don't understand why this would be a source of warm fuzzies. Everyone else is really you? That means none of the people I care about ever existed! I can't imagine people continuing to function with a belief like that, and yet there it is, a Facebook group whose members smile knowingly at each other, each member fully complacent with the idea that none of the others really exist.
"People are crazy, the world is mad." Having boggled at them, I pass by.
Maybe if your life is miserable (e.g., let's say you are estranged from your family, you are unemployed or have a soul-crushing job, and/or you have no close friends and no romantic prospects) you get a thrill out of believing that none of it is real, that those bothersome people you interact with are in fact only aspects of yourself.
This is a kind of META argument. "How miserable you must be, to suggest something like this ..."
Doesn't matter how miserable or not he is. It only matters if he is right or not.
I'm just answering Rukifellth's question as to how could someone derive warm fuzzies from such a belief, not making any kind of argument against it.