Update: Ruby and I have posted moderator notices for Duncan and Said in this thread. This was a set of fairly difficult moderation calls on established users and it seems good for the LessWrong userbase to have the opportunity to evaluate it and respond. I'm stickying this post for a day-or-so.
Recently there's been a series of posts and comment back-and-forth between Said Achmiz and Duncan Sabien, which escalated enough that it seemed like site moderators should weigh in.
For context, a quick recap of recent relevant events as I'm aware of them are. (I'm glossing over many details that are relevant but getting everything exactly right is tricky)
- Duncan posts Basics of Rationalist Discourse. Said writes some comments in response.
- Zack posts "Rationalist Discourse" Is Like "Physicist Motors", which Duncan and Said argue some more and Duncan eventually says "goodbye" which I assume coincides with banning Said from commenting further on Duncan's posts.
- I publish LW Team is adjusting moderation policy. Lionhearted suggests "Basics of Rationalist Discourse" as a standard the site should uphold. Paraphrasing here, Said objects to a post being set as the site standards if not all non-banned users can discuss it. More discussion ensues.
- Duncan publishes Killing Socrates, a post about a general pattern of LW commenting that alludes to Said but doesn't reference him by name. Commenters other than Duncan do bring up Said by name, and the discussion gets into "is Said net positive/negative for LessWrong?" in a discussion section where Said can't comment.
- @gjm publishes On "aiming for convergence on truth", which further discusses/argues a principle from Basics of Rationalist Discourse that Said objected to. Duncan and Said argue further in the comments. I think it's a fair gloss to say "Said makes some comments about what Duncan did, which Duncan says are false enough that he'd describe Said as intentionally lying about them. Said objects to this characterization" (although exactly how to characterize this exchange is maybe a crux of discussion)
LessWrong moderators got together for ~2 hours to discuss this overall situation, and how to think about it both as an object-level dispute and in terms of some high level "how do the culture/rules/moderation of LessWrong work?".
I think we ended up with fairly similar takes, but, getting to the point that we all agree 100% on what happened and what to do next seemed like a longer project, and we each had subtly different frames about the situation. So, some of us (at least Vaniver and I, maybe others) are going to start by posting some top level comments here. People can weigh in the discussion. I'm not 100% sure what happens after that, but we'll reflect on the discussion and decide on whether to take any high-level mod actions.
If you want to weigh in, I encourage you to take your time even if there's a lot of discussion going on. If you notice yourself in a rapid back and forth that feels like it's escalating, take at least a 10 minute break and ask yourself what you're actually trying to accomplish.
I do note: the moderation team will be making an ultimate call on whether to take any mod actions based on our judgment. (I'll be the primary owner of the decision, although I expect if there's significant disagreement among the mod team we'll talk through it a lot). We'll take into account arguments various people post, but we aren't trying to reflect the wisdom of crowds.
So if you may want to focus on engaging with our cruxes rather than what other random people in the comments think.
This is not directly related to the current situation, but I think is in part responsible for it.
Said claims that it is impossible to guess what someone might mean by something they wrote, if for some reason the reader decided that the writer likely didn't intend the straightforward interpretation parsed by the reader. It's somewhat ambiguous to me whether Said thinks that this is impossible for him, specifically, or impossible for people (either most or all).
Relevant part of the first comment making this point:
Relevant part of the second comment:
For the sake of argument, I will accept that Said finds this impossible. With that said, the idea that this is impossible - or that it "basically never happens, and if it does happen then it is probably by accident" - is incompatible with my experience, and the experience of approximately anybody I have queried on the subject. (Said may object here, and claim that people are not reliable reporters. And yet conversations happen anyways; I've done this before in situations where there was no possible double illusion of transparency. This is not to say that there are no trade-offs; I would not be surprised if Said finds himself confidently holding an incorrect understanding of others' claims less often than most people.)
My guess is that this is responsible for a large part of what many consider to be objectionable about Said's conversational style. Many other objections presented in the comments here (and in the past) seem confused, wrong, or misguided. It might be slightly more pleasant to read Said's comments if he added some trimmings of "niceness" to them, but I agree with him that sort of thing carries meaningful costs. Rather, I think the bigger problem is that the way Said responds to other people's writing, when he is e.g. seeking clarification, or arguing a point, is that he does not believe in the value of interpretive labor, and therefore doesn't think it's valuable to do any upfront work to reduce how much interpretive labor his interlocutors will need to do, since according to him, that should in any case be "zero".
This basically doesn't work when you're trying to communicate with people who do, in fact, successfully[1] do interpretive labor, and therefore expect their conversational partners to share in that effort, to some degree.
Separately, and more to the matter at hand, although I think that there were supererogatory paths that Duncan could have taken to reduce escalation at various points, I do think that Said's claim that Duncan advocated for a norm of interaction accurately described as "don't ask people for examples of their claims" was obviously unsupported by his linked evidence. After Duncan calls this out, Said doubles down, and then later (in the comments on this post) tries to offload this onto a distinction between whether he was making a claim about what Duncan literally wrote, vs. what could straightforwardly be inferred about Duncan's intentions (based on what he wrote).
I find this uncompelling given that Said has also admitted (in the comments here) that his literal claim was indeed a strawman, while at the same time the entire thread was precipitated by gjm indicating that he thought the claim was a strawman. Said claims to have then given a more "clarified and narrow form" of his claim in response to gjm's comment:
If Said is referring to the parenthetical starting with "See, for example", then I am sorry to say that adding such a parenthetical in the context of repeating the original claim nearly verbatim (
to describe Duncan as advocating for a norm of “don’t ask people for examples of their claims”
, and“what are some examples of this claim?” is, in his view, unacceptable
) does not count as clarifying or narrowing his claim, but is simply performing the same motion that Duncan took issue with, which is attempting to justify a false claim with evidence that would support a slightly-related but importantly different claim.I'm leaving out a lot of salient details because this is, frankly, exhausting. I think the dynamics around Killing Socrates were not great, but I also have less well-formed thoughts there.
Sometimes - often enough that it's worth relying on, at least.
Ability to be successful is crucially different from considering it a useful activity. The expectation of engaging isn't justified by capability to do so.