Thank you for writing about this. It's a tremendously interesting issue.
I feel qualitatively more conscious, which I mean in the "hard problem of consciousness" sense of the word. "Usually people say that high-dose psychedelic states are indescribably more real and vivid than normal everyday life." Zen practitioners are often uninterested in LSD because it's possible to reach states that are indescribably more real and vivid than (regular) real life without ever leaving real life. (Zen is based around being totally present for real life. A Zen master meditates eyes open.) It is not unusual for proficient meditators to describe mystical experiences as at least 100× more conscious than regular everyday experience.
I'm very curious about the issue of what it means to say that one creature is "more conscious" than another--or, that one person is more conscious while meditating than while surfing Reddit. Especially if this is meant in the sense of "more phenomenally conscious". (I take it that you do mean "more phenomenally conscious", and that's what you are saying by invoking the hard problem. But let me know if that's not right). Can you say more about what you mean? Some background:
Pautz (2019) has been influential on my thinking about this kind of talk about 'more conscious' or 'level of conscious' or 'degree of consciousness'. Pautz distinguishes between many consciousness-related things that certainly do come in degrees.
On the one hand, we have certain features of the particular character of phenomenally conscious experiences:
And then there is a 'global' feature of a creature's phenomenal consciousness:
In light of this, my questions for you:
Finally: this post has inspired me to be more ambitious about exploring the broader regions of consciousness space for myself. ("Our normal waking consciousness, rational consciousness as we call it, is but one special type of consciousness, whilst all about it, parted from it by the filmiest of screens, there lie potential forms of consciousness entirely different." -William James). And for that, I am grateful.
Though I wrote "while meditating", that language is misleading. The effects persist after meditation. They are often most salient immediately after meditation since, while meditating, I am too focused on meditating to appreciate the effects.
When I have a consistent mediation practice, I am more conscious along the intensity, complexity and access dimensions. I feel more conscious along the experiential repertoire too, but that might be more subjective. What do you mean by "determinacy"? I don't understand your definition.
I would be surprised if there weren't other ways I am more conscious after meditation that isn't included under your terms, but this is a notoriously difficult experience to describe.
Looking at the pain scale, I guess I'm somewhat atypical. On the pleasurable experiences I had, I'd order them such:
(Yes, I've had the last one despite being 100% a cis-male. Let's attribute it to "the magics" and leave it at that.)
And on the pain scale, the worst tooth ache I've ever had was way stronger that when my gallbladder was almost rupturing, so I think it'd go like this:
Ditto, or more precisely, no one from my graduation class has any interest in paying for one, so we all got our certificates by mail. I suppose it helps that most everyone was 30+, and the major was Philosophy, neither of which predisposes one to care much about such things, much less when put together.
I majored in physics and graduated at 22. I think the common threads are that neither of our majors are highly-employable on their own and that our graduations were never in doubt. Someone who struggled through a valuable degree would be in a different position.
Tongue orgasm
I'm intrigued – google gives only porn videos as search results.
Also, I assume you mean a P-spot orgasm when you say "female orgasm"?
I'm intrigued – google gives only porn videos as search results.
The tongue is very sensitive. A very skilled kisser knows how to intensely stimulate the top of their partner's tongue with theirs while French kissing, to the point one or both of them get a very specific kind of orgasm different from any other. In my case I got spasms while washed in endorphins, which took several minutes to subside. :-)
Also, I assume you mean a P-spot orgasm when you say "female orgasm"?
No, I mean actual female orgasm. I can provide exactly zero evidence for this, which on LW is a particularly huge no-no, but if mentioning a little bit of mystic experiences isn't too much of a problem I can say there are Tantra masters out there who can induce some pretty interesting experiences on suitable students, one of which is, on male-bodied ones, those of having a full set of phantom limb representatives of female genitalia complete with the mental experience of female orgasms (as well as of male genitalia on female-bodied students). This is linked to advanced Karmamudrā techniques.
What if it's not transitive?
Wouldn't that kinda throw a wrench in the idea of modeling it as continuous scale?
Interesting article.
An oddity I noticed is that the statistics ranks "Sexual Assault" equal to "Aunt Death". That seems wrong to me and might be due to the (hopefully) low sample size.
The original article doesn't mention the oddity either.
But that got me thinking of where "Sexual Assault" would / should rank in "Painful Experiences". Does anyone have insight into that or can direct me to a post?
This post is derived from Logarithmic Scales of Pleasure and Pain by the Qualia Research Institute. Thank you Romeo Stevens for introducing me to the cool work you're doing over there.
If we want to cure suffering then we need a way to measure suffering.
The human brain does not, by default, reason in absolutes. We reason via ratios. The difference between 1 and 2 feels about the same as the difference between 100 and 200 even though the difference between 100 and 200 is 100× as large as the difference between 1 and 2. This is known as Weber's Law.
To put this in mathematical terms, we map everything onto a logarithmic scale and then compare distances on the log plot. On a log plot, the distance between 1 and 2 equals the distance between 100 and 200.
Weber's Law doesn't just apply to measurements of our external environment. It applies to subjective experience itself. When you combine Weber's Law with subjective reports of conscious experience we find that valence (the intensity of an experience) is long-tailed. Consciousness itself may be long-tailed too.
The Valence Scale
Are people intersubjectively consistent on the relative pleasure and pain caused by different things? Yes we are.
Pleasure
You know how every instant is a priceless gift but it's hard to appreciate that fact? When I'm meditating regularly I consistently, after thirty minutes of focused attention, drop into a state where I appreciate it. (My default mode network turns off too.) I don't know where my experiences fall on the nth Jhana ladder but I suspect there are meditative states way higher than what I've experienced. There are people who meditate for decades.
When I'm in a state of meditatively-heightened awareness I'm not just in a more blissful state. I feel qualitatively more conscious, which I mean in the "hard problem of consciousness" sense of the word. "Usually people say that high-dose psychedelic states are indescribably more real and vivid than normal everyday life." Zen practitioners are often uninterested in LSD because it's possible to reach states that are indescribably more real and vivid than (regular) real life without ever leaving real life. (Zen is based around being totally present for real life. A Zen master meditates eyes open.) It is not unusual for proficient meditators to describe mystical experiences as at least 100× more conscious than regular everyday experience.
That sounds right to me.
One way to describe ultra-bliss is as pure intense universal unconditional compassion toward everything you comprehend. I don't think this is the only kind of ultra-bliss. Different meditative techniques could produce different bliss states. But universal compassion seems like an easy one to describe to people who haven't "stood on the ragged edge of reality".
Pain
The horrifying flipside to "pleasure is incomprehensibly long-tailed" is that "pain is incomprehensibly long-tailed too". Trigeminal neuralgia is reported to be especially bad.
The explorers of the pain frontier are even crazier than the LSD users and the mountain yogis.
The Science
QRI created predictions based on the idea that valence is long-tailed.
They surveyed a bunch of people on Mechanical Turk. They did a bunch of math to rank the surveyed experiences.
Most Pleasurable Experiences
Most Painful Experiences
I don't see "death of a child" on the list. I suspect it's because we live in a time period where child death is rare.
Conclusions
This paper is evidence my personal experience is a tiny parochial region of consciousness space. It reminds me I should do more meditation. It reminds me I should be helping out others in incomprehensible (to me) pain.