Proponents of spirituality and alternative medicine often use the argument "this has been practiced for 2000 years", with the subtext "therefore it must work". Does this argument have any validity?

At first glance I want to reject the argument entirely, but that might be premature. Are there situations where this kind of argument is valid or somewhat valid?

I was reminded of this question when I read Shaila Catherine's book The Jhanas (about certain ecstatic meditation states mentioned in Buddhism) and she said something like: "Trust in the method. Buddhists have been practicing it for 2600 years. It works. Your mind is not the exception." This argument did not seem valid to me, because AFAIK Buddhist monasteries do not publish records of how many of their monks achieve which states and insights - au contraire, I believe monks have a taboo against talking about their attainments. So I know of no evidence that most practitioners can achieve jhana. From what I know, it is entirely plausible that only a small fraction of practitioners ever succeed at these instructions, and that therefore their minds are the exception, not mine.
 

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deepthoughtlife

137

It obviously has 'any' validity. If an instance of 'ancient wisdom' killed off or weakened the followers enough, it wouldn't be around. Also, said thing has been optimized for a lot of time by a lot of people, and the version we receive probably isn't the best, but still one of the better versions.

While some will weaken the people a bit and stick around for sounding good, they generally are just ideas that worked well enough. The best argument for 'ancient wisdom' is that you can actually just check how it has effected the people using it. If it has good effects on them, it is likely a good idea. If it has negative effects, it is probably bad.

'Ancient wisdom' also includes a lot of ideas we really don't think of that way. Including math, science, language, etc. We start calling it things like 'ancient wisdom' (or tradition, or culture) if only certain traditions use it, which would mean it was less successful at convincing people, and less likely to be a truly good idea, but a lot of it will still be very good ideas.

By default, you should probably think that the reasons given are often wrong, but that the idea itself is in some way useful. (This can just be 'socially useful' though.) 'Alternative medicine' includes a lot of things that kind of work for specific problems, but people didn't figure out how to use in an incontrovertible manner. Some alternative medicines don't work for any likely problem, some are more likely to poison than help, but in general they solve real problems. In many cases, 'ancient wisdom' medicine is normal medicine. They had a lot of bad ideas over the millenia medically, but many aso clearly worked. 'Religion' includes a lot of things that are shown scientifically to improve the health, happiness, and wellbeing of adherents, but some strains of religion make them do crazy / evil things. You can't really make a blatant statement by the category.

ChristianKl

103

When it comes to Buddhist practice, it's worth noting that practicing techniques by the book is not how Buddhism was practiced for most of the time in the last 2500 years. It was mostly an oral tradition and as such the knowledge that's passed down from teacher to student evolves over time in various ways. 

Many modern Buddhist tradition put much more emphasis on meditation in contrast to ritualized behavior. 

In Buddhism (and in Christanity for that matter) for thousands of years meditation was largely done in monasteries and not by lay-people. In many Buddhist communities "lay-people aren't supposed to meditate" is something you could call "ancient wisdom". 

In someone convinces you in a Western context that following some practice is ancient wisdom, they are likely doing a lot of picking and choosing in a way that does not make it clear how ancient the thing they are promoting actually happens to be. 

This is a great point! Generally, whenever someone says "let's do this traditional thing", you might want to check whether the thing actually is traditional... before getting distracted by the endless debates about whether "traditional things" are better than "modern things" (often too unspecific to be useful).

Adding my own too-unspecific-to-be-useful statement, I suspect that most things advertised as traditional are in fact not. Or that the tradition claiming to be millennia old actually started like hundred years ago, so kinda traditional, just not in the way the proponents claim.

Thac0

80

I'd read Nassim Nicholas Taleb on the Lindy effect for the strongest defense of this proposition. Basically all ideas and culture are constantly fighting in a market of culture. For every Jhana there are 1000 different spiritual concepts, which try to occupy the same niche. There has to be something to Jhana's that leads to it still being done today, while the rest became history. That something does not have to necessarily mean that the idea is true, for example meditation in general is known to be very good for you, so if Jhana's work as the carrot on the stick to get people to meditate, then the idea would also stick around, as people start praising Jhana's due to the benefits they got from meditation. But every idea that is old needs to have some sort of payload, something that helped it survive on the market of ideas and culture for millenia.

Matthew Roy

51

I would tend to give particular credence to any practice which pre-dates the printing press.

The reason is fairly straightforward. Spreading ideas was significantly more expensive, and often could only occur to the extent that holding the ideas made the carriers better adapted to their environments.

As the cost to spread an idea has become cheaper, humans can unfortunately afford to spread a great deal more pleasant (feel free to substitute reward hacking for pleasant) junk.

That doesn't mean failing to examine the ideas critically, but there are more than a few ideas that I once doubted the wisdom of, which made a great deal more sense from this perspective.

As for the particular practice of meditation that you reference, I tend to view spiritual practices as somewhat difficult to analyze for this purpose, as the entire structure of the religion was what was transmitted, not only the particularly adaptive information. To use DNA as an analogy, it's difficult to tell, which portions are of particularly high utility, analogous to the A, C, G, and T in DNA, and which serve as the sugar-phosphate backbone. Potentially useful in maintenance of the structure as a whole, but perhaps not of particular use when translated outside that context.

Which portions of Buddhism are which, I couldn't tell you, I lack practice in the meditation methods mentioned, and lack deeper familiarity with the relevant social and historical context.

StartAtTheEnd

4-3

Ancient wisdom is not scientific, and it might even be false, but the benefits are very real, and these benefits sort of works to make the wisdom true.

The best example I can give is placebo, the belief that something is true helps make it true, so even if it's not true, you get the benefits of it being true. The special trait ancient wisdom has is this: The outcome is influenced by your belief in the outcome. This tends to be true for psychological things, and advice like "Belief can move mountains" is entirely true in the psychological realm. But scientific people, who deal with reality, tend to reject all of this and consider it as nonsense, as the problems they're used to aren't influenced by belief.

Another case in which belief matters includes treating things with weight/respect/sacredness/divinity. These things are just human constructs, but they have very real benefits. Of course, you can be an obnoxious atheist and break these illusions all you want, but the consequences of doing this will be nihilism. Why? Because treating things as if they have weight is what gives them weight, and nihilism is basically the lack of perceived weight. There's nothing objectively valid about filial piety, but it does have benefits, and acting as if it's something special makes it so.

Ancient wisdom often gets the conclusions right, but get the explanations wrong, and this is likely in order to make people take the conclusions seriously. Meditation has been shown to be good for you. Are you feeling "Ki" or does your body just feel warm when you concentrate on it? Do you become "one with everything" or does your perception just discard duality for a moment? Do you "meet god" or do you merely experience a peace of mind as you let go of resistance? The true answer is the boring one, but the fantastical explanation helps make these ideas more contagious, and it's likely that the false explanations have stuck around because they're stronger memetically.

Ancient wisdom has one advantage that modern science does not: It can deal with things which are beyond our understanding. The opposite is dangerous: If you reject something just because you don't understand why it might be good (or because the people who like it aren't intellectual enough to defend it), then you're being rational in the map rather than in the territory. Maybe the thing you're dismissing is actually good for reasons that we won't understand for another 20 years.

You can compare this with money, money is "real but not real" in a similar way. And this all generalizes far beyond my examples, but the main benefits are found, like I said, in everything human (psychological and spiritual) and in areas in which the consensus has an incomplete map. I belive that nature has its own intelligence in a way, and that we tend to underestimate it.

Edit: Downvotes came fast. Surely I wrote enough that I've made it very easy to attack my position? This topic is interesting and holds a lot of utility, so feel free to reply. 

[-]dirk30

With regards to placebo, the strength of the effect has actually been debated here on Less Wrong— Why I don't believe in the placebo effect argues that the experimental evidence is quite weak and in some cases plausibly an artifact of poor study design

I don't think I can actually deliberately believe in falsity it's probably going to end up in a belief in a belief rather than self deception.

Beside having false ungrounded beliefs are likely to not be utility maximising in the long run its a short term pleasure kind of thing.

Beliefs inform our actions and having false beliefs will lead to bad actions.

I would agree with the Chesterton fence argument but once you understand the reasons for the said belief's psychological nature than truthfulness holding onto to it is just rationalisation.

Ancient wisdom is m... (read more)

1StartAtTheEnd
Some false beliefs can lead to bad actions, but I don't think it's all of them. After all, human nature is biased, because having a bias aided in survival. The psyche also seems like it deceives itself as a defense mechanism fairly often. And I think that "believe in yourself" is good advice even for the mediocre. I'm not sure which part of my message each part of your message is in response to exactly, but some realizations are harmful because they're too disillusioning. It's often useful to act like certain things are true - that's what axioms and definitions are, after all. But these things are not inherently true or real, they become so when we decide that they are, but in a way it's just that we created them. But I usually have to not think about that for a while before these things go back to looking like they're solid pieces of reality rather than just agreements. Ancient wisdom can fail, but it's quite trivial for me to find examples in which common sense can go terribly wrong. It's hard to fool-proof anything, be it technology or wisdom. Some things progress. Math definitely does. But like you said, a lot of wisdom is rediscovered periodically. Science hasn't increased our social skills nor our understanding of ourselves, modern wisdom and life advice is not better than it was 2000 years ago. And it's not even because science cannot deal with these. The whole "Be like water" thing is just flexibility/adaptability. Glass is easier to break than plastic. What's useful is that somebody who has never taken a physics class or heard about darwinism can learn and apply this principle anyway. And this may still apply to some wisdom which accidently reveals something which is beyond the current standard of science. As for that which is not connected to reality much (wisdom which doesn't seem to apply to reality), it's mostly just the axioms of human cognition/nature. It applies to us more than to the world. "As within, so without", in short, internal changes see
4lesswronguser123
  Hard disagree, there's an entire field of psychology, decision theory and ethics using reflective equilibrium in light of science.    Well some things go wrong more often than other things, wisdom goes wrong a lot of time, it isn't immune to memetic selection, there is not much mechanism to prevent you from falling for false memes. Technology after one point goes wrong wayyy less. A biology textbook is much more likely to be accurate and better on medical advice than a ayurvedic textbook.    Yes it's a metaphor for adaptiveness, but I don't understand where it may apply other than being a nice way to say "be more adaptive". It's like logical model like maths but for adaptiveness you import the idea of water-like adaptiveness into situations.    You know what might be an axiom of human cognition? Bayes rule and other axioms in statistics. I have found that I can bypass a lot of wisdom by using these axioms where others are stuck without a proper model in real life due to ancient wisdom. Eg; I stopped taking ayurvedic medication which contained carcinogens; when people spend hours thinking about certain principles in ethics or decision theory I know the laws to prevent such confusion etc   Honestly I agree with this part, I think this is the biggest weakness of rationalism. I think the failure to general purpose overcome akrasia is a failure of rationality. I find it hard to believe that there would be a person like david goggins but a rationalist. The obsession with accuracy doesn't play well with romanticism of motivation and self-overcoming, it's a battle you have to fight and figure out daily, and under the constraints of reality it becomes difficult.  
2StartAtTheEnd
There's an entire field of psychology, yes, but most men are still confused by women saying "it's fine" when they are clearly annoyed. Another thing is women dressing up because they want attention from specific men. Dressing up in a sexy manner is not a free ticket for any man to harass them, but socially inept men will say "they were asking for it" because the whole concept of selection and stardards doesn't occur to them in that context. And have you read Niccolò Machiavelli's "The Prince"? It predates psychology, but it is psychology, and it's no worse than modern books on office politics and such, as far as I can tell. Some things just aren't improving over time. You gave the example of the ayurvedic textbook, but I'm not sure I'd call that "wisdom". If we compare ancient medicine to modern medicine, then modern medicine wins in like 95% of cases. But for things relating to humanity itself, I think that ancient literature comes out ahead. Modern hard sciences like mathematics are too inhuman (autistic people are worse at socializing because they're more logical and objective). And modern soft sciences are frankly pathetic quite often (Gardner's Theory of Multiple Intelligences is nothing but a psychological defense against the idea that some people aren't very bright. Whoever doesn't realize this should not be in charge of helping other people with psychological issues) It's a core concept which applies to all areas of life. Humans won against other species because we were better at adapting. Nietzsche wrote "The snake which cannot cast its skin has to die. As well the minds which are prevented from changing their opinions; they cease to be mind". This community speaks a lot of "updating beliefs" and "intellectual humility" because thinking that one has all the answers, and not updating ones beliefs over time, leads to cognitive inflexibility/stagnation, which prevents learning. Principles are incredibly powerful, and most human knowledge probably boils down
2lesswronguser123
  I think majority of people aren't aware of psychology and various fields under it. Ethics and decision theory kind of give a lot of clarity into such decisions when you analyse the payoff matrix. I haven't The prince but have read excerpts from it in self-improvement related diaspora, I am not denying the value which such literature gives us, I just think we should move on by learning from it and developing on top in light of newer methods.  Beside I am more of a moral anti-realist so lol. I don't think there is universally compelling arguments for these ethical things, but people with enough common psychological and culture grounds can cooperate.    Well it depends on your definition of inhuman, my_inhuman =/= your_inhuman value is a two place function, my peers when I was in high school found at least one of the hard sciences fun. Like them I find hard sciences pretty cool to learn about for fulfilling my other goals.  Agreed. Some fields under psychology as pathetic. But the fields like cognitive biases etc are not.    Well astrology has clearly failed me, my mom often had these luddite-adjacent ideas about what I am meant to do in life because her entire source of ethics was astrology. Astrology in career advice is like rolling a dice and assigning the all the well known professions to a number rather than actual life satisfaction or value fulfillment.  I would strongly disagree on the front of intelligence . More Rational as in cognitive algorithms which tend to lead to systematic optimality in this case truth seeking/achieving goals is indeed possible and pretty much is a part of growth. I would weakly disagree on the front of Internal family subsystems (with the internal double crux special case being extremely useful) and other introspective reductionist methods where you   break   down   your  emotional responses and process into parts and understand what you like/dislike and the various attempts to bridge the two. On this front there are plethor
1StartAtTheEnd
I don't think there's a reason for most people to learn psychology or game theory, as you can teach basic human behaviour and such without the academic perspective. I even think it's a danger to be more "book smart" than "street smart" about social things. So rather than teaching game theory in college, schools could make children read and write a book report on "How to Win Friends & Influence People" in 4th grade or whatever. Academic knowledge which doesn't make it to 99% of the population doesn't help ordinary people much. But a lot of this knowledge is simple and easier than the math homework children tend to struggle with. I don't particularly believe in morality myself, and I also came to the conclusion that having shared beliefs and values is really useful, even if it means that a large group of people are stuck in a local maximum. As a result of this, I'm against people forcing their "moral" beliefs on foreign groups, especially when these groups are content and functional already. So I reject any global consensus of what's "good". No language is more correct than another language, and the same applies for cultures and such.  It's funny that you should link that post, since it introduces an idea that I already came up with myself. What I meant was that people tend to value what's objective over what's subjective, so that their rational thinking becomes self-destructive or self-denying in a sense. Rationality helps us to overcome our biases, but thinking of rationality as perfect and of ourselves as defect is not exactly healthy. A lot of people who think they're "super-humans" are closer to being "half-humans", since what they're doing is closer to destroying their humanity than overcoming or going beyond it. And I'm saying this despite the fact that some of these people are better at climbing social hierarchies or getting rich than me. In short, the objective should serve the subjective, not the other way around. "The lenses which sees its own flaws" mere
2lesswronguser123
Honestly I don't know enough about people to actually tell if that's really the case for me book smart becomes street smart when I make it truly a part of me.   That's how I live anyways. For me when you formalise streetsmart it becomes booksmarts to other people, and the latter is likely to yield better prediction aside from the places where you lack compute like in case of society where most of people don't use their brain outside of social/consensus reality. So maybe you're actually onto something here, along the lines of "don't tell them the truth because they cannot handle it"  lol.    Well since I wanted to dismantle the chesterton fence I did reach the similar conclusions as yours regarding why it came to be and why they (the ancients) fell for it, the correlation causation one is the general purpose one. One major reason was agriculture where it was likely to work well due to common cause of seasons and relative star movement. So it can also be thought of as faulty generalisation.   That's false I wouldn't have socially demotivated my mom using apathy from wasting  too much money on astrology, if I had been enthusiastic about it it would have fueled into her desire. Astrology is like that false hope of lottery, waste of emotional energies.  I would have been likely to fall for other delusions surrounding astrology instead of spending that time learning about things for example going on to pilgrimage for few weeks before exams etc .  Besides astrology predicts everything on the list of usual human behavior and more or less ends up predicting nothing.    Well more or less rational is w.r.t. to cognitive algorithms, you tend to have one variable, achieving goals. And cognitive algorithms which are better at reaching certain goals are more rational w.r.t. to that goal.  There is a distinction made better truth oriented epistemic rationality and day-to-day life goal oriented instrumental rationality but for me they're pretty similar that for epistemic t
2StartAtTheEnd
There's a lot to unfold for this first point: Another issue with teaching it academically is that academic thought, like I already said, frames things in a mathematical and thus non-human way. And treating people like objects to be manipulated for certain goals (a common consequence of this way of thinking) is not only bad taste, it makes the game of life less enjoyable. Learning how to program has harmed my immersion in games, and I have a tendency to powergame, which makes me learn new videogames way faster than other people, also with the result that I'm having less fun than them. I think rationality can result in the same thing. Why do people dislike "sellouts" and "cars salesmen" if not for the fact they they simply optimize for gains in a way which conflicts with taste? But if we all just treat taste like it's important, or refuse to collect so much information that we can see the optimal routes, then Moloch won't be able to hurt us. If you want something to be part of you, then you simply need to come up with it yourself, it will be your own knowledge. Learning other peoples knowledge however, feels to me like consuming something foreign. Of course, my defense of ancient wisdom so far has simply been to translate it into an academic language in which it makes sense. "Be like water" is street-smarts, and "adaptability is a core component of growth/improvement/fitness" is the book-smarts. But the "street-smarts" version is easier to teach, and now that I think about it, that's what the bible was for. Most things that society waste its time discussing are wrong. And they're wrong in the sense than even an 8-year-old should be able to see that all controversies going on right now are frankly nonsense. But even academics cannot seem to frame things in a way that isn't riddled with contradictions and hypocrisy. Does "We are good, but some people are evil, and we need to fight evil with evil otherwise the evil people will win by being evil while we're being good
2lesswronguser123
  Yes intuitions can be wrong welcome to reality. Beside I think schools are bad at teaching things.   Yes the trick for that is to delete the piece of knowledge you learnt and ask the question, how could I have come up with this myself?    That just sounds to me like "we need wisdom because people cannot think" . Yes I would agree considering when you open reddit, twitter or any other platform you can find many biases being upvoted. I would agree memetic immune system is required for a person unaware of various background literature required to bootstrap rationality. I am not advocating for teaching anything I don't have plans for being an activist or having will to change society. But consider this, if you know enough rationality you can easily get past all that. Sure a person should be aware when they're drifting from the crowd and not become a contrarian since reversed stupidity is not intelligence and if you dissent when you have overwhelming reason for it you're going to have enough problems in your life   I would agree on the latter part regarding good/evil. Unlike other rationalist this is why I don't have will to change society. Internet has killed my societal moral compass for good/evil however you may like to put it for being more egoistic. Good just carries a positive system 1 connotation for me, I am just emoting it, but I mostly focus on my life. Or you have to be brutally honest about it, I don't care about society as long as my interests are being fulfilled. Agreed, map is not the territory, it feels same to be wrong as it feels to be right.    Yes if someone isn't passionate about such endeavours they may not have the will to sustain it. But if a person is totally apathetic to monetary concerns they're not going to make it either. So a person may argue on a meta level it's more optimal to be passionate about a field or choose a field you're passionate about in which you want to do better , to overcome akrasia and there might be some selec
-1StartAtTheEnd
But these ways of looking at the world are not factually wrong, they're just perverted in a sense. I agree that schools are quite terrible in general. That helps for learning facts, but one can teach the same things in many different ways. A math book from 80 years ago may be confusing now, even if the knowledge it covers is something that you know already, because the terms, notation and ideas are slightly different. In a way. But some people who have never learned psychology have great social skills, and some people who are excellent with psychology are poor socializers. Some people also dislike "nerdy" subjects, and it's much more likely that they'd listen to a ted talk on budy language than read a book on evolutionary psychology and non-verbal communication. Having an "easy version" of knowledge available which requires 20 IQ points less than the hard version seems like a good idea. Some of the wisest and psychologically healthy people I have met have been non-intellectual and non-ideological, and even teenagers or young adults. Remember your "Things to unlearn from school" post? Some people may have less knowledge than the average person, and thus have less errors, making them clear-sighted in a way that makes them seem well-read. Teaching these people philosophy could very well ruin their beautiful worldviews rather than improve on them. I don't think "rationality" is required. Somebody who has never heard about the concept of rationality, but who is highly intelligent and thinks things through for himself, will be alright (outside of existential issues and infohazards, which have killed or ruined a fair share of actual geniuses). But we're both describing conditions which apply to less than 2% of the population, so at best we have to suffer from the errors of the 98%. I'm not sure what you mean by "when you dissent when you have an overwhelming reason". The article you linked to worded it "only when", as if one should dissent more often, but it also warns
3lesswronguser123
Honestly majority of the points presented here are not new and already been addressed in  https://www.lesswrong.com/rationality  or https://www.readthesequence.com/  I got into this conversation because I thought I would find something new here. As an egoist I am voluntarily leaving this conversation in disagreement because I have other things to do in life. Thank you for your time. 
1StartAtTheEnd
The short version is that I'm not sold on rationality, and while I haven't read 100% of the sequences it's also not like my understanding is 0%. I'd have read more if they weren't so long. And while an intelligent person can come up with intelligent ways of thinking, I'm not sure this is reversible. I'm also mostly interested in tail-end knowledge. For some posts, I can guess the content by the title, which is boring. Finally, teaching people what not to do is really inefficient, since the space of possible mistakes is really big. Your last link needs an s before the dot. Anyway, I respect your decision, and I understand the purpose of this site a lot better now (though there's still a small, misleading difference between the explanation of rationality and in how users are behaving. Even the name of the website gave the wrong impression).

Ape in the coat

21

Survival of a meme for a long time is a weak evidence of its truth. It's not zero evidence, because true memes have advantage over false ones, but neither it's particularly strong evidence, because there are other reasons for meme virulence instead of truth, so the signal to noise ratio is not that great.

You should, of course, remember that Argument Screens Off Authority. If something is true there have to be some object level arguments in favor of it, instead of just vague meta-reasoning about "Anscient Wisdom". 

If all the arguments for a particular thing are appeals to tradition, if you actually look into the matter and it turns out that even the most passionate supporters of it do not have anything object-level to back up their beliefs, if the idea has to shroud itself in ancestry and mystery, lest it will lack any substance, then it's a stronger evidence that the meme is false.

Viliam

20

Claims about "if you keep doing this thing, after a lot of hard work you will achieve these amazing results" seem memetically useful regardless of their truth value. It gives people motivation to join the group and work harder; and whenever someone complains about working hard but not getting the advertised results, you can dismiss them as doing it wrong, or not working hard enough.

Also, consider the status incentives. Claiming to achieve the results after a lot of hard work is high-status; admitting to not achieving the results is low-status; and the claims are externally unverifiable anyway.

I believe monks have a taboo against talking about their attainments

I suspect this rule appeared as a consequence of many monks following the status incentives too obviously. Letting them continue doing so would be good for them but bad for the group, so the groups that made the taboo were more successful.

(Cynically speaking, the actual rule seems to be: Low-status people are not allowed to talk about their attainments. If you are high-status, others will make assumptions about your attainments, and you can just smile mysteriously and speak some generic wise words, or otherwise confirm it in a plausibly deniable way.)

Dagon

20

Age and popularity of an idea or practice have some predictive power as to how useful it has been.  Old and surviving is some evidence.  Popular is some evidence.  Old and NOT popular is conflicting evidence - it's useful (or at least not very harmful) to some, perhaps limited by context or covariant factors that don't apply elsewhere.  

Whether your interpretation of a practice will get benefits for you should probably be determined by more specific analysis than "it worked for a small set of people in a very different environment, and never caught on universally".

Anders Lindström

23

Some stuff just works but for reasons unknow to the practioner. Trail and error is a very powerful tool if used over over many generations to "solve" a particular problem. But that do not mean anyone know WHY it works.

I'm curious why you were downvoted, for you hit the nail on the head. For a short an concise answer, yours is the best.

Does anyone know? Otherwise I will just assume that they're rationalists who dislike (and look down on) traditional/old things for moral reasons. This is not very flattering of me but I can't think of better explanations.

2Viliam
Don't overthink it. Two downvotes (or maybe one strong downvote) just means that there were one or two people who didn't like the answer, and the rest either didn't notice it or didn't care enough to vote. I understand that it sucks, but in general, if few people vote on a thing, there is a lot of noise.
1StartAtTheEnd
Maybe people care way less about the difference between the two kinds of downvotes than I do. Even if the comment was bad or poorly communicated, I don't think the disagree downvote is appropriate as long as the answer is correct. I see the votes as being "subjective" and "objective" respectively. I agree about the noise thing
1dirk
Other people have seen different evidence than you, and don't necessarily agree about which answers are correct.
1StartAtTheEnd
Then, I'd argue, they're being wrong or pedantic. Since I don't believe my evidence is wrong, it's at most incomplete, and one could argue that an incomplete answer is incorrect in a sense, not because it says anything wrong, but because it doesn't convey the whole truth. If either reason applied to anyone reading that comment, I'd have loved to discuss it with them, which is why I wrote that initial comment in a slightly provocative or cocky way (which I belive is not inappropriate as it reflects my level of confidence quite accurately). This may conflict with some peoples intellectual virtues, but I think a bit of conflict is healthy/necessary for learning
1dirk
Why do you expect difficulty thinking of explanations to correlate with the only one you can think of being correct? It seems obvious to me that if you have a general issue with thinking of explanations, the ones you do think of will also be worse than average.
0StartAtTheEnd
I worded that a bit badly, I meant I had a hard time thinking of better (meaning kinder) explanations, not better (meaning more likely) explanations. Across all websites I've been on in my life, I have posted more than 100000 comments (resulting in many interactions), so while things like psychoanalyzing people, assuming intentions, and making stereotypes is "bad", I simply have too much training data, and too few incorrect guesses not to do this. I do, however, intentionally overestimate people (since I want to talk to intelligent people, I give people the benefit of doubt for as long as possible) but this means that mistakes are attributed to their intentions, personality or values, rather than careless mistakes or superficial heuristics. In this situation, I've assumed that they're offended by the idea that traditional socities rival the science method in some situations. But it may be something more superficial like "I find short comments to be effortless", "somebody else already said that" or "I didn't understand your explanation and I consider it your fault". But like I said in another comment, I remember the first downvotes being disagreements (red X) rather than regular downvotes, so I took it as meaning "this is wrong" rather than "I don't like this comment". Not that any of this matters very much, admittedly
2dirk
The explanation is bad both in the sense of being unkind and in the sense of being unlikely. There are many explanations which are likelier, kinder, and simpler. I think you overestimate your skill at thinking of explanations, and commented for that reason. (Edit: that is, I think you should, if your likeliest explanation is of this quality, consider yourself not to know the true explanation, rather than believing the one you came up with).
1StartAtTheEnd
I don't see it as unkind, and I don't think "trial and error" is a wrong explanation either. It seems very unlikely that ideas which are strictly harmful stick around for a very long time. So much that it must necessarily tend in the other direction (I won't attempt to prove this though) I'm good at navigating hypothesis space, so any difficulties are likely related to theory of mind of people who are very different from myself (being intelligent but out of sync in a way). Still, I don't buy the idea that people can't or shouldn't do this. You're even guessing at my intentions right now, and if somebody is going to downvote me for acting in bad faith, they'll also need to guess at my intentions. So this seems like a common and sensible thing to do in moderation, rather than an intellectual sin of sorts
2dirk
Sorry, to clarify, your explanation is the one I'm talking about, not Anders'.
1StartAtTheEnd
You don't think the entire western world is biased in favor of science to a degree which is a little naive? In addition to this, I think that people idolize intelligence and famous scientists, that they largely consider people born before the 1950s to have repulsive moral values, that they dislike tradition, that they consider it very important to be "educated", that they overestimate book smarts and underestimate the common sense of people living simple lives, and that they believe that things generally improve over time (such that older books are rarely worth bothering with), and I believe that social status in general make people associate with newer ideas over older ones. There's also a lot of people who have grown up around old, strict and religious people and who now dislike these. It doesn't help it that more intelligent people are higher in openness in general, and that rationalism correlates with a materialistic and mechanical worldview. Many topics receive a lot more hostility than they deserve because of these biases, and usually because they're explained in a crazy way (for instance, Carl Jungs ideas are often called pseudoscience, and if you take the bible literally then it's clearly wrong) or because people associate them with immorality (say, the idea that casual sex is disliked by traditional because they were mean and narrow-minded, and not because casual sex caused problems for them, or because it might cause problems for us) A lot of things are disliked or discarded despite being useful, and a lot of wisdom is in this category. All of this was packed in the message that "people dislike old things because it sounds irrational or immoral" (people tend to dislike long comments)
2dirk
... No, I mean I'm discussing your statement "I'm curious why you were downvoted.... I will just assume that they're rationalists who dislike (and look down on) traditional/old things for moral reasons. This is not very flattering of me but I can't think of better explanations." I think the explanation you thought of is not a very likely one, and that you should not assume that it is true, but rather assume that you don't know and (if you care enough to spend the time) keep trying to think of explanations. I'm not taking any position on Anders' statement, though in the interests of showing the range of possibilities I'll offer some alternative explanations for why someone might have disagree-voted it. -They might think that stuff that works is mixed with stuff that doesn't -They might think that trial and error is not very powerful in this context -They might think that wisdom which works often comes with reasonably-accurate causal explanations -They might think that ancient wisdom is good and Anders is being unfairly negative about it -They might think that ancient wisdom doesn't usually apply to real problems Et cetera. There are a lot of possible explanations, and I think being confident it's the specific one you thought of is unwarranted.
2dirk
I’ve reread the comment thread and I think I’ve figured out what went wrong here. Starting from a couple posts ago, it looks like you were assuming that the reason I thought you were wrong was that I disagreed with your reasons for believing that people sometimes feel that way, and were trying to offer arguments for that point. I, on the other hand, found it obvious that the issue was that you were privileging the hypothesis, and was confused about why you were arguing the object-level premises of the post, which I hadn’t mentioned; this led me to assume it was a non-sequiter and respond with attempted clarifications of the presumed misunderstanding. To clarify, I agree that some people view old things negatively. I don’t take issue with the claim that they do; I take issue with the claim that this is the likeliest or only possible explanation. (I do, however, think disagree-voting Anders' comment is a somewhat implausible way for someone to express that feeling, which for me is a reason to downweight the hypothesis.) I think you’re failing to consider sufficient breadth in the hypothesis-space, and in particular the mental move of assuming my disagreement was with the claim that your hypothesis is possible (rather than several steps upstream of that) is one which can make it difficult to model things accurately.
1StartAtTheEnd
That sounds about right. And "people sometimes feel that way" is a good explanation for the downvote in my opinion. I was arguing the object-level premises of the post because the "disagree" downvote was factually wrong, and this factual wrongness, I argue, is caused by a faulty understanding of how truth works, and this faulty understanding is most common in the western world and in educated people, and in the ideologies which correlate with western thought and academia. If you disagree with something which is true, I think the only likely explanations are "Does not understand" and "Has a dislike of", and the bias I pointed out covers both of these possibilities (the former is a "map vs territory" issue and the latter is a "morality vs reality" issue). I think you figured out what went wrong nicely, but in the end the disagreement remains. I still consider my point likely. If somebody comes along and tells me that they disagreed with it for other reasons, I might even argue that they're lying to themselves, as I'm way to disillusioned to think that a "will to truth" exists. I think social status, moral values and other such things are stronger motivators than people will admit even to themselves.
0StartAtTheEnd
I refered to that too (specifically, the assumption). By true I meant that the bias which I think is to blame certainly exists, not that it was certain to be the main reason (but I'd like to push against this bias in general, so even if this bias only applies to some of the people to see my comment, I think it's an important topic to bring up, and that it likely has enough indirect influence to matter) To address your points: 1: Of course it's mixed. But the mixed advice averages out to be "wise", something generally useful. 2: I think it's necessarily trial and error, but a good question is "does the wisdom generalize to now?".  3: This of course depends on the examples that you choose. A passage on the ideal age of marriage might generalize to our time less gracefully than a passage on meditation. I think this goes without saying, but if we assume these things aren't intuitive, then a proper answer would be maybe 5 pages long. 4: Would interpreting it as "negative" not mean that it has been misunderstood? That one can learn without understanding is precisely why they could prosper with a level of education which pales to that of modern times. We learned that bad smells were associated with sickness way before we discovered germs. If our tech requires intelligence to use, then the lower quartile of society might struggle. And with the blind approach you can use genius strategies even if you're mediocre. 5: along with 4, I think this is an example of the bias that I talked about above. What we think of as "real" tends to be sufficiently disconnected from humanity. Religion and traditional ways of living seem to correlate with mental health, so the types of people who think that wealth inequality is the only source of suffering in the world are too materialistic and disconnected. Not to commit the naturalistic fallacy, but nature does optimize in its own way, and imitating nature tends to go much better than "correcting" it.
2Alex Vermillion
On the contrary, your guess did not take context into account and was bad. They were downvoted for answering in a way which didn't answer the question, had many typos, and otherwise took more effort to read than the information it contained was worth. Your comment "added more heat than light" for no reason, with no prompting. I explicitly am only making this comment because you posted a long paragraph explaining why you are so sure that you did a good job analyzing when it looks like you did a very poor one. Perhaps people in the past have not given useful feedback, so I will give a short piece: do not do this psycho-analysis until you have generated at least 2 alternate theories for what happened.
1StartAtTheEnd
They did answer the question, there's just a little bit of deduction required? I understood it at a glance and didn't even notice any typos. Situations in which agents can learn something without understanding the reasons behind what they learn are quite common, it's not a novel idea, it just raises a red flag in people who are used to scientific thinking. The general bias in society against tradition/spirituality/religion is too strong compared to the utility (even if not correctness) of these three. That useless extra text in my previous comment saves a future comment or to by taking things into account in advance. I even wrote the "I didn't understand the explanation" reaction above (as something one might have thought before downvoting the comment), so it's not that I didn't think of it, I just considered it an unlikely reaction as I disagree with it
0Anders Lindström
When it comes to being up- or down-voted its a real gamble. There are of course the same mechanism at play here just as on other social (media) platforms, i.e., there are certain individuals, trends and thought patterns that are hailed and praised and vice versa without any real justification. But hey, that is what makes us human, these unexplainable things called feelings. PS perhaps a new hashtag on X would be appropriate #stopthedownvoting
0StartAtTheEnd
Yeah I'm asking because downvotes are far too ambigious. I think they're ambigious to the point that they don't make for useful feedback (You can't update a worldview for the better if you don't know what's wrong with it). I don't think downvotes are necessarily bad as a concept though. And about humanity - sure, and on any other website I'd largely have agreed with your view, but when I talk about intellectual things I largely push my own humanity to the side. And even if somebody downvotes because of irrational feelings, I'm interested in what those feelings are. But I know that people on here frequently value truth, and I'm quite brutal to those values as I think truth is about as valid of a concept as a semicolon (the language is just math/logic rather than English). And if we are to talk about Truth with a capital T, then we're speaking about reality, which is more fundamental than language (the territory, reality, is important. But I rarely see any good maps, even on this website. So when taoists seem to suggest throwing the map away entirely, I do think that's a good idea for every day life. It's only for science, research and tech that I value maps). That makes me an outlier though, haha.
4notfnofn
I didn't downvote it, but didn't upvote it either. This answer was posted after other answers that contained this answer as a subset, with deeper analysis.
1StartAtTheEnd
That makes sense, I just evaluated the comment in isolation. But I believe that the first few downvotes were as "incorrect" (the red X) rather than regular downvotes (down arrow), which is why the feedback occured to me as simply mistaken (as the comment is not false). I've noticed, by the way, that most comments posted tend to get downvoted initially and then return to 0 over time. There may be a few regular, highly active users with high standards or something, and less casual users with lower standards which balance them out over time. I've gone to -10 and back before. 
2Anders Lindström
I understood why you asked, I am also interested in general why people up or down vote something. I could be a really good information and food for thought. Yeah, who doesn't want capital T truth... But I have come to appreciate the subjective experience more and more. I like science and rational thinking, it has gotten us pretty far, but who am I the question someones experience. If someone met 'the creator' on an ayahuasca journey or think that love is the essence of universe, who am I to judge. When I see the statistics on the massive use of anti-depressants it is obvious to me that we can´t use rational and logical thinking to think our way out from our feelings. What are rationality and logical thinking good for if it in the end can't make us feel good?

David Gross

20

It seems plausible to me that there is a sort of selection process in which people are creating ostensible-wisdom all the time, but only some of that wisdom gets passed along to the next generation, and the next, and so forth, while a lot of it gets discarded. If some example of wisdom is indeed ancient, then you can by virtue of that have at least some evidence that it has passed through this selection process.

To what extent this selection process selects for wisdom that actually earns that designation I'll leave as an exercise for the reader.

3 comments, sorted by Click to highlight new comments since:

Bookmarking because this is something I'd like to see discussed here and hope there are some interesting answers when I check back.

I come from an Indian household where my mom follows all sorts of ancient spiritual advice, some of which is now more mainstream (like looking at the sun in the morning and going on long fasts) and some of which still strikes me as completely unbelievable (like leaving water in the sun to absorb energy). But she's in absurdly good health at 61 years old and could honestly pass for 20 years younger, despite living a very hard and stressful life.

My takeaway from this is that we should be really careful about partial knowledge about complex systems. Simple models and imperfect descriptions of the systems are useful, but we should remember that any corollary of these models might be flawed in a way we don't know. On a related note, I'm skeptical that we're really taking all risks of SAI into account.

some of which still strikes me as completely unbelievable (like leaving water in the sun to absorb energy)

Ultraviolet disinfection?

Just a speculation, generated by nailing the custom to the wall and seeing what hypothesis accretes around it.

I mostly think it's too loose a heuristic and that you should dig into more details