Update on this project: it has fallen into the classic irrational rationalist attractor of people leaving the group house unannounced owing money (approx. £3000 in rent and bills between them, owed to me). The violation of this most basic of social norms leads me to conclude that the Manchester community (Kernel Project) is now doomed. Now that it is regarded as acceptable, amongst those who remain, to screw people over on rent and bills, what’s to stop it happening again and again, until no one will go near the project? Such a grand vision, trashed for a such a small short term gain. I’m finding it hard to believe to be honest. Regardless of whether genuine friendships (as opposed to temporary alliances) are even possible in this community, there seems to be this blind spot when it comes to basic game theoretical considerations involving trust, reputation and appropriate risks. Why are physical rationalist communities so prone to it? It’s so irrational.
The amounts are disputed
The first I heard of this was after I discovered that they had absconded whilst I was away. They had been racking up debts for months, during which time none of them disputed what they owed* (To be absolutely clear: this is not a flaking on future dated rent, these are accumulated debts for past rent and bills, services that have already been used.)
*The one exception to this was Ben laying claim to a saving made by me on the purchase of my house. He had a chance encounter that led to a heads up on potential issues with my house, and ultimately allowed me to negotiate £1,800 off the asking price. This info was given to me unconditionally at the time, as any friend would do. It don’t think it’s reasonable for him to backdate a claim to some of the savings and regard it as fungible with rent and bills owed. If he’d wanted to sell me the information at the time, fine. I might’ve given him £100 for it or something (although I’m sure a lot of people would just be like “WTF dude, just tell me! I thought you were a friend!”). But he didn’t do this. I will admit that when I first heard this claim, the first order consequentialist in me thought that there may be some...
I am glad that this topic is being discussed. But IMO, this post contains too much about external factors that might have impeded the Craft-and-Community project, and not enough on what project work was done, why that work didn't succeed, and/or why it wasn't enough.
There have been a number of rationalist-branded organizations that tried to spread, develop, or apply LW-rationality. The main examples I have in mind are MetaMed and CFAR. My ideal postmortem would include a lot of words about why MetaMed failed, whether CFAR failed, whether the results in either case are surprising in hindsight, etc. This post doesn't mention MetaMed, and only mentions CFAR briefly. And while I share your negative assesssment of CFAR, you don't talk in any detail about how you came to this assessment or what lessons might be learned from it.
While it may be true that cultural, economic, etc. factors indirectly caused the Craft-and-Community project to fail, there is an intermediate causal layer, the actual things people did (or avoided doing) to further the project. If your boss tells you to build a rocket by next month, and next month there is no rocket, and your boss asks wh...
Here's my postmortem on MetaMed: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HzZd3jsG9YMU4DqHc62mMqKWtRer_KqFpiaeN-Q1rlI/edit?usp=sharing
Here's Zvi's, which is quite different: https://thezvi.wordpress.com/2015/06/30/the-thing-and-the-symbolic-representation-of-the-thing/
I think that post of mine is important but it is (obviously) not attempting to be a full post-mortem. We did a ton of things wrong at MetaMed, and I did a ton of things wrong, and this focuses mostly on one (very important) particular thing - the business idea itself. The business idea was quite bad. I never did write the full post-mortem for various reasons. One of those was that by the end I was so emotionally worn down that I couldn't bear to think about things enough to write the damn thing, another was that I didn't want to cause any more drama.
What drives me nuts is that people look at MetaMed and say, well, rationalists are bad at doing start-ups or doing business or forming companies. They say, 'we had our chance and we failed.' And this is insane. It is completely f***ing nuts. Most start-ups fail. Failing at a start-up doesn't even mean that you, personally are bad at start-ups. If anything the SV-style wisdom is that it means you have experience and showed you will give it your all, and should try again! You don't blow your credibility by taking investor money, having a team that gives it their all for several years, and coming up short.
I...
Haven't finished the entire post, but I would like to correct your claim that people who live in the Bay Aea and want to have children have to buy houses. Currently there are three group houses I'm aware of with children (Nexus, Asgard, and Onward). As far as I am aware all three have solid alloparenting norms, where it is normal and expected that people who are not the child's parents will take care of the child sometimes. This is the cross-culturally normal way for people to take care of children. I am convinced the ludicrous Anglosphere norm that each parent (or set of parents) lives in a separate house and the only non-parent people who provide care for a child are paid is a significant part of the reason parenting makes people miserable.
My husband and I are making significant personal sacrifices to move to Onward. We expect that he will be able to work full-time and me part-time, without day care, because of the social support available in a place with strong group house norms and not available elsewhere.
(Also, who lives in Berkeley and works at Facebook? Who drives to work in the Bay Area? This is why God invented trains and commuter buses.)
Additionally, my husband is setting up a homeschooling center in Berkeley (we expect the "entering class" to be about two years away, as we're waiting for the current crop of babies to grow up). We think we can work it out so that it costs half as much as daycare, a full-time babysitter, or a private school -- while still being a much better education than public school.
(For young children, think Montessori-style; as the kids get older, think group and independent projects, internships, SOLE, taking advantage of UC Berkeley's resources, co-working with adults, generally doing more stuff in the real world than school generally allows children to do.)
Elon Musk founded a school to educate his kids. It's kind of a convergent thing to do, among people of a certain level of success and awareness of how the world works. You don't have to shell out infinite money for lousy education just because it's the done thing.
It's kind of a convergent thing to do, among people of a certain level of success and awareness of how the world works.
Relatedly, my parents helped found an elementary school that my oldest sibling was in the founding class of. That school is now about as expensive per-year as out-of-state tuition at a nice university. (Still a nice school, though.) It has about 200 students at any given time.
My takeaway from this is that scaling schools at all at a reasonable cost is really hard.
my husband is setting up a homeschooling center in Berkeley...Elon Musk founded a school to educate his kids. It's kind of a convergent thing to do
These examples seem to me provide great support for the claim that the Bay Area is a terribly difficult place to raise children. If I heard that you and Elon Musk were growing your own herbs to counteract the toxic levels of pesticides found in storebought spices, I would conclude that the food supply is seriously effed up, not that everything is fine.
Yes, you're demonstrating that it's ameliorable, but the fact that high-performing people need to put in individual effort to get a decent solution to a common need is not exactly encouraging. And depending on a community to invent novel solutions at half market price is generally not a winning stra
First of all, I hope your project succeeds, and look forward to seeing what you produce.
I've long been skeptical of Berkeley as a hub--for years I stayed in Austin because it was cheap and had a tech industry and I was going to school there and I liked Texas; I only left for Berkeley because I got hired by MIRI. (Thankfully, the guy who took over running Austin's LW meetup group is doing a better job of it than I ever did, and it's growing.) So I'm sympathetic to the viewpoint that rationalists shouldn't all flock to Berkeley.
But I felt like most of your essay talking about how the community is failing, in Berkeley or in general, relied too much on the impressions of some specific people in a way that felt hard to engage with. Mostly due to lack of specificity; for example, when you make comparisons to the control group of rationality, there I have a specific sense of what you mean, and can engage about who you think our control group actually is. But when moving to Berkeley means"[s]omething is happening to them, although it isn’t particularly clear what," I don't know how to engage with that. Did it happen to me / is it happening to me? To know I'd have to know what you're trying to point at.
I like this post and think it makes a lot of good points.
I think the failures of the community you list are mostly accurate, and best summed up by "if you have a thing to do, it's important not to be incompetent, and there's a lot of social pressure around here towards being incompetent."
I'm probably not betting on Kernel, though I think it would be great for some people, because I'm taking a more diversified strategy. I'm doing intellectual & technical growth through my job & side projects, and personal growth through my family. I'm not relying on the rationalist community (or, indeed, an offshoot) to provide social closeness, intellectual stimulation, and productive impact on the world. I'm relying on living in a world-class city for that. It's a lot lower risk than trusting a new founder.
If you want to hang out with competent people who will influence you for the better -- a lot of them are right here in the Bay Area, you just haven't met them yet.
Of course, the Bay Area is embedded in the US, and has its own culture, and is restricted by local laws. This is a lousy place to build a new civilization or a new cul...
Overall I found this post difficult to digest, since the structure of the central argument isn't very explicit. I had to read it several times through to properly figure out what it was about. In the future, I strongly suggest splitting up posts like this into a few more compact posts focusing on comparatively homogenous subsets of the content.
I agree with a fair number of your criticisms, and think that trying things based on models is generally good. The basic critique that the SF Bay Area is made of cultural forces that are predictably going to div...
I wrote a post listing reasons why I would not move to Manchester. Since writing it I've gotten more confident about the 'bad culture fit' conclusion by reading bendini's blog. I would also add that the part of the community with the best gender ratio (rationalist tumblr) and the adjacent community with the best gender ratio (Alicorn's fan community) are also the ones with the norms that the founders of this project seem to find most objectionable, and the ones who seem to be the worst culture fit for the project. I think things li...
It may be useful to note that a regional accent, in the UK, is much more indicative of a working class background than it is in the US.
Alas! While I do actually deeply appreciate this massive post and think that a lot of valuable effort went into it, we have banned discussion primarily about the community from the frontpage until we have a community tag that can by default be hidden to new users.
I would be happy for you to repost this back to the frontpage as soon as we have a community tag in a few weeks (we need to develop a whole tagging system first), but until then, this will be moved to your personal page.
This could go some way to explaining why CFAR, prior to its AI pivot, never really managed to produce much applied rationality. Doing so would have required going back to the drawing board and completely overhauling the curriculum, figuring out how to teach writing instead of literary criticism.
Curious as to what makes you say this. My feeling, from having been to a CFAR workshop, using their techniques afterwards, and following the stuff that they've been developing after I was with them, is that CFAR has been very successful at developing a lot of applied rationality.
Hi. Can you give a one line pitch for the kernal project? For example I would characterise my understanding of Benquo's project as something a long the lines of "Productivity, through truth-seeking and radical integrity".
My own project might be "More autonomy for everyone, through sharing open technology".
After digesting this a bit, I think I come away with the idea that the internet is bad for creating change in people and that the systemized winning training has to happen on the personal, real-life level.
Is there a function that a website like this can serve if it can't create change?
What would you turn this forum into to be maximally beneficial towards your change?
From an outside (but sympathetic) perspective, seems like this post would have been better if you started out with "Why we're starting a new rationalist community in Manchester" and took it from there? As it is, I wonder how many people made it to the end.
One thing I've seen noted elsewhere and not here, re: hub location and politics:
You note that Berkeley is exceedingly "politically correct" and count this as a negative, and you are indeed pointing to a real and negative thing, but there's another side to this. Every place has some dominant political culture and norms. The Bay Area has an unusually left-leaning political culture, more so than almost any other place in the U.S. This on the one hand gets you Berkeley's riots, and on the other hand gets you (for example) more queer/t...
Insufficient archiving of this incident, due to an underappreciation of the value in doing so. While writing this I had a hard time actually finding things I had previously read. Googling "Gleb Tsipursky lesswrong" doesn’t return any direct accounts of bad behaviour, you have to go digging for it. The right to be forgotten has its merits, but it isn’t meant to be applied when people are still doing the thing that got them in trouble in the first place.
I think maybe Concerns With Intentional Insights is what you were looking for?
"But when the first settlers came to the Hill Country, no one was calling them 'victims', least of all themselves. If someone had told them the truth, in fact, they might not have listened. For the trap was baited well. Who, entering this land after a rainy April, when 'the springs are flowing, the streams are rushing, the live oaks spread green canopies, and the field flowers wave in widespread beauty,' would believe it was not in a 'less humid' but an 'arid' zone? Moreover, as to the adequacy of the rai...
It seems like there are a lot of noncreepy explanations for why Berkeley residents might post less online, most notably that they might be using their social energy on more fulfilling in-person interactions.
When it comes to Gleb, I don't think the problem was that he didn't changed his behavior at all. One example of behavior change was that Gleb actually started giving drafts of posts he published to other people to get the worst problems from appearing in the published version.
The problem was a lot more about the point from his completely different idea about what should be done where given him feedback to change particular behaviors was not enough even when Gleb integrate.
The right to be forgotten has its merits, but it isn’t meant to be applied...
Hi Ben,
I've also been systematically thinking about research into effective groups. (Rather than 'group rationality', as though groups were some kind of special case of individual effectiveness.)
I'd prefer not to discuss things in a public forum, and as you noted the private message system is totally nonfunctional.
Feel free to email me at jd@fortforecast.com for more info.
The Origin Project is also working on the same general problems, and looking to grow. You don't have to move anywhere, and you can get started right now.
https://hivewired.wordpress.com/2017/09/13/an-introduction-to-origin/
We've been working for the last few months on building out a cultural framework that can be used wherever you are, and just with the people around you. To build a sense of community and meaningful interactions.
But we're not there yet. We're too few.
Come as you are.
The two following claims jumped out at me.
Through a combination of social anxiety, low empathy, poor time management and an inability to anticipate their future selves’ behaviour, people flake on plans they have previously agreed to.
...Instead of granting permission for people to tell them harsh but constructive things about their behaviours, they must either tolerate them forever, or discretely ostracise them.
What once could have been mostly addressed with a few months of uncomfortable mentoring now becomes, if they can’t solve the problem independentl
I see no value in attempting to change the demographics, and much potential harm in diluting the core message to appeal to a broader audience.
I have similar objections to most of your points, but I find your general attitude both oblivious and rage-inducing to engage with and so nothing else I wrote was high-quality.
I don't agree with all your criticisms, but I've very excited to see this project as, regardless of how it turns out, I expect that it will end up teaching the community a lot.
You need to have a strategy in place for dealing with MOPs before you are overrun.
I agree with this statement, but I also am interested in how you plan on dealing with Sociopaths, in the Geeks, MOPs, Sociopaths model. Or at least filtering for the ones who actually Get It, versus the ones looking to opportunistically score resources.
MIRI seems to be a particularly well-tended garden because it's led primarily by Geeks, with Sociopath skill sets. They're not, as in the default case, Geek-sympathizing Sociopaths.
Could you speak to your sense of how the model applies to this particular community? I'm interested in finding crux points.
Epistemic status: Broad, well-developed speculation.
Preface
To my knowledge, this essay contains the most comprehensive list of criticisms of the rationality community to date. Understandably, some people may take this as a rejection of the community as a whole. It is not. In order to fix problems affecting a non-hierarchical group, individuals within the group need to have a shared understanding of them. In order to do this, someone has to look under the hood and report back with their findings.
Most people are aware there is something wrong in a general sense. There is, to some extent, an awareness that things aren’t quite right but little consensus at to whether it's analogous to a vitamin deficiency or more like a malignant neoplasm.
Solutions vary, depending on the type and extent of the problems. As such, if the consensus is that they are relatively trivial, some solutions are going to look like amputating a leg to deal with a discoloured toenail. If however, the problems are more serious, the majority of solutions proposed up to now look a lot like putting a bandaid on a bullet wound. This is the crux of it, and I expect most negative responses to this will boil down to disagreement over the size, scope and urgency of addressing the problems.
That also includes disagreements over tone; if you spot an axe murderer prowling the library, you are well within your rights to warn people by screaming at the top of your lungs. Unless you are following an absolute version of Kantian ethics, the value tradeoffs you make should vary based on what you are trying to accomplish. In the above example, alerting potential victims of an axe murderer is of far higher importance than maintaining the decorum of the library. This applies to less extreme problems too, tailored to their size, scope and urgency, while remaining mindful of the long-term consequences of bending the rules "just this once" and the pitfalls of operating in a perpetual state of emergency.
In essence, I’m taking a nuanced view of the maxim "Kind, True, Necessary". I believe every issue not omitted from the finished essay is at least relevant to talk about, every factual claim I make is to my knowledge and best efforts true, but I am not being as kind as I could possibly be. I could be kinder by writing in the abstract, but in practice that often ends up obscuring the point to such an extent that people unaware of the object level example fail to cross the inferential gap. It has often been the case in the past where I have read essays about issues within the community, assumed they were relatively trivial, then when privately informed of the details being shocked at how serious they were.
Politeness, when taken to extremes, can also have serious repercussions. If you are a meetup organizer for the kink community and you avoid telling new members there are known predators at most events, and instead cryptically suggest to "watch where you step" you are, intentionally or otherwise, prioritizing maintaining a civil atmosphere over maintaining civilization itself. Euphemizing a message to the point where those involved aren’t even aware they are being referred to runs a very high risk of missing its intended audience.
As such, this essay prioritises clarity over civility. It does not shout, nor does it speak in the gentle West Coast whisper many of you are accustomed to. Sometimes it is necessary to raise your voice slightly in order to be heard.
Introduction
It has been nearly a decade since the Craft and the Community was published. Eliezer outlined a plan, hoping that someone would take the reins while he was working on AI alignment. We were told to go forth and create the art yet art creation has been overlooked, like a homeless man we try to avoid eye contact with.
Avoiding eye contact is an understandable and reasonable response for most people, given how little they can do about his situation. However it’s a little harder to justify that here, considering we still have the words "Soup Kitchen" up there in big bold letters.
Every once in awhile some wide-eyed newcomer asks why we aren’t more successful. Responses vary from minor nitpicking to claiming the rationality community is basically a bunch of people who enjoyed Yudkowsky’s blog. To me it is equal parts surreal and horrifying that people who had the reasoning ability to absorb the Sequences, including the repeated reminders that rationality is systemized winning got together with other readers and concluded that the real purpose of rationality was to have really fun conversations at dinner parties. The calm, unmoved responses make it feel like it was all some elaborate prank; that anyone who actually took the Sequences literally was either too autistic or naive to realise that they weren’t in on the joke. An implicit "Oh you sweet summer child, words don’t actually have meanings!"
This wasn’t always the consensus. Over the years there have been several dissenting voices trying to lead us in a better direction. Most of them eventually moved on when their schedules filled up or they got tired of banging their head against a wall.
One such person was Patri Friedman, known here as patrissimo. He wrote an essay on our lack of instrumental rationality and how to fix it shortly before departing. Since leaving LessWrong, his googleable accomplishments have been to get enough traction for Seasteading to sign a deal for a floating autonomous zone in French Polynesia, doing more for libertarianism than any other organization in the past few decades.
This is not a 1:1 causal relationship, but there does seem to be a correlation. To build off Patri’s analogy, there is quite the difference in outcomes between the people who stayed on the couch watching marathons, in the hopes that it would benefit their running technique when they finally got started, and those who put on whatever shoes they had to hand, got up and left the house.
Post-Mortem - What went wrong?
In retrospect, it seems somewhat surprising that a community so full of potential in both talent and values has achieved so little towards their goals when looked at as a group. There have been exceptional individuals, each with their own secret sauce they are unable to articulate the recipe for, but the median person seems to be roughly as successful as they would have been had they not discovered the rationality community. Success is not entirely, and probably not even mostly, genetic. Or in other words, information and cultural memes matter. Given this is the case, the question is why hasn’t this community managed to beat the control group?
This has been an unresolved question of mine for a few years now, and in the last several months, developed into an intense fascination.
I feel I’m starting to develop a coherent model. Like all things involving people, very little is explained by a single cause. Individual factors cluster into general areas with substantial overlaps between them. As such, looking at parts in isolation is like trying to recognise a person sitting in front of you by looking at them through a high-powered telescope. Understanding the causal mechanisms requires examination in an appropriate level of detail, being aware of individual examples and the wider context they exist in.
The following sections are an attempt to categorize them. Cleanly separating them is hard, given how interrelated they are. Yet, as with conjoined twins, you’ve got to make the incision somewhere.
The issues are separated under the broad headings of Demographics, Environment and Culture. Most issues have a cause stemming from another area and have second order effects in yet more areas still. Mapping all of these out fully would lengthen this essay to hundreds of pages, so only the most relevant connections are made.
Problems and causal factors
Demographics - Background selection effects
For various reasons, the Sequences disproportionately attracted the personality types who liked reading, hypothesising and debating. One of the defining characteristics of that personality type is a preference for extensive contemplation before action. Put enough of those people in the same place and social founder effects will exaggerate that to the point where action is rarely taken at all. From The War Of Art:
Disconcerting, if true.
This is far from the only trait we have an overabundance of. Other surveys of the community suggest we have high percentages of depression, anxiety, autism and ADHD. Anecdotal evidence suggests we have a high proportion of socially maladjusted people who are some combination of heavily introverted, awkward, hyper-individualistic, oblivious, overly trusting, previously ostracised and confrontation avoidant. In an achievement sense we have a staggering percentage of people who have the intelligence to enter the higher echelons of society, but instead fell through the gaps due to burnout, untreated ADHD, major depression, defiance of authority figures, and other related causes. In a broad demographic sense, we also draw disproportionately from Blue Tribe and upper middle class backgrounds.
Even when a trait is not possessed by a majority, a tipping point mechanism can cause traits possessed in overabundance by a small minority to have wider cultural effects. It has been suggested that tipping points for opinions can happen when they are held by as little as 10% of a population.. It’s far from unreasonable to worry that a community where traits such as depression have been formally diagnosed at over twice the rate of the general population might create effects downstream.
The effects of these traits can impact our ability to achieve objectives in many cause areas. To unpack what I mean by that, here is a useful diagram borrowed from one of Raemon’s Project Hufflepuff posts:
Achieving objectives is typically thought of belonging mostly in the blue circle, but in reality, all focus areas have objectives. They may not be rooted in the standard concept of "achievement", but a sense of preferring certain outcomes/values over others.
We live in a universe where values are fragile. Where in the vast space of possible outcomes, only an infinitesimal fraction are good, and an even smaller fraction are great. Having a measurable impact is hard. Finding and preserving truth is hard. Creating flourishing communities is hard. Good outcomes do not happen by accident any more often than whirlwinds assemble Boeing 747s when passing through scrapyards.
Even when ideal, low-entropy states are achieved, constant work is required to avoid regressing to the mean. Thinking that the Rationalist community is immune to entropic forces is like thinking a refrigerator with the word cold on it will work without being plugged in.
Here are some of the problems, sorted by category, listing potential causes and secondary consequences.
Problems caused in the Truthseeking/epistemic circle:
Deep theoretical models, particularly psychological and sociological ones, don’t end up modelling reality very accurately
People like Gleb Tsipursky leeching off our epistemically rigorous reputation and organizations linked to us, in order to gain status in the wider world
Problems caused in the Impact/instrumental circle:
Inability to recruit underrepresented demographics
Projects that aren’t run as businesses struggle
Distrust of outsiders reducing both intake and spread of information
Lack of focus on instrumental rationality
Problems caused in the Human/community circle:
Romantic dissatisfaction of straight men
Difficulty forming deeper friendships
Difficulties executing short term plans
Almost complete inability to coordinate on long time horizons
Lacking a sense that more is possible
People feel the need to sell themselves (signalling smartness/interestingness/value)
I don’t expect everyone will agree with all of these bullet points. This list is extensive, not comprehensive. Most issues vary significantly in severity and occurrence depending on what part of the community you reside in. At worst, this is substantial food for thought.
This isn’t the part of the essay where I drill down into specific solutions, but since these problems are particularly salient at this point, it would be prudent to spare a few words for some general ones.
There are, to my knowledge, only three routes to solving these demographic issues on a wider basis:
If the tech industry is anything to go by, this is almost certain to fail. Even if it did succeed, there is a good chance the community would cease to be a place where most of us would want to stay.
This might be a possibility for some, and would require a hell of a lot of work to rebuild our intellectual foundations from scratch, but still technically doable. However, unless you have well-justified reasons for believing that you won’t just end up with the original demographic balance you started with, you’d be better off spending your time doing something else.
This is far from a guaranteed success. There have been quite a few people who tried and failed at this, for various reasons. Yet, at least compared to the other two options, it appears by far the most promising. There have been recent efforts in this general direction, from Project Hufflepuff to LessWrong 2.0. Perhaps there is enough momentum to capitalize on it?
Shifting the culture is not as simple as raising awareness. For changes to last longer than a news cycle, it will require consistent deliberate effort. It will require a conscious choice to pay attention to negative feedback and boring details, things that are far less pleasurably stimulating than whatever highbrow clickbait Venkatesh Rao will be posting in the meantime.
Alex jones is right, There is a war on for your mind.
To transition back to the structure of the post, demographic factors are not the only area where Molochean forces conspire to destroy everything we hold dear.
Environment - Picking the wrong location
People are, to some degree, products of their environment. This is true in both a cultural sense, in that people who live in Mexico are overwhelmingly more likely to be Catholic than people in Iran, and an economic sense, in that an Ethiopian is far more likely to lack the basic necessities than an Australian. The question is not if, but to what percentage environment is responsible for outcomes.
If we are to believe the account of Zvi Mowshowitz, centering the community in Berkeley is quite possibly the worst strategic mistake we have ever made. A quote:
This is not good news, for any of us.
For those on the inside, it means what you thought was a hard but ultimately worthwhile decision to leave your local community and move to Berkeley has, in light of new evidence, become a very large sunk cost that you won’t want to re-evaluate.
For those of us on the outside, we are now dealing with the fact that our local communities were hollowed for nothing. That the mission, the instrumental craft could have been years further along by now had Berkeley not redirected people’s talents towards other aims.
I won’t deny there is important work being done in Berkeley, and I’d even go as far to say there are some organizations such as MIRI that belong there. My claim, similar to Zvi’s, is that most individuals and rationalist-aligned organizations do not benefit from that location choice.
The reasons for this are not immediately apparent. From the outside, people full of energy and enthusiasm make the pilgrimage to Berkeley, go quiet on social media, and when you finally hear from them six months later they don’t seem like the person you once knew. Something is happening to them, although it isn’t particularly clear what.
I don’t claim to have found an exact sequence of events responsible for this. Doing so would require me to enter the belly of the beast, presenting the risk I may not come back with my findings. Instead, I’ve been maintaining a heightened awareness for any discussion of the topic. Passing comments embedded in the discourse were singled out for analysis, and reconciled with other data in an attempt to isolate common factors.
The broad, overarching effects can be categorized as cultural and economic.
(note: I occasionally use Berkeley as a catch-all term that includes SF and the wider Bay Area; this is to avoid pedantic clarification that interferes with the sentence structure)
The background cultural environment
Berkeley, as an entity, contains many elements that undermine our values. Elements which corrode our community bonds, our epistemic processes and our instrumental capabilities.
To start with, Berkeley is, if forum polls and protests against Milo Yiannopoulos are anything to go by, possibly the most politically correct city in America. Basing a community that values free speech and open minded discussion in a place famous for social justice witch hunts is a really bad idea. Even if that community managed to insulate itself from the outside environment (which it didn’t) it would still need the air conditioner to work much harder than otherwise necessary to maintain a cool, level-headed atmosphere within its walls.
In addition to negative cultural traits being introduced from the background, the population of Berkeley and the wider Bay Area have similar demographic and cultural traits to the rationalist community. Putting those people together creates further feedback loops, on top of the original ones.
If we had founder effects before, now we have founder effects squared.
Negative traits that were present in a minority of our demographic can become so prevalent that they can achieve cultural fixation. Social maladjustment is relative, and mostly depends on the norms of the wider population. This means if a negative trait becomes normal, it can become accepted as the proper way to behave. Those without the negative trait are seen as abnormal, and those who oppose the negative trait become pariahs.
If you want a general example of this, think about how the wider world treats honesty.
Now what happens if that trait is, let's say, flakiness? What sort of effects might this have on the cultural valuation of reliability?
A quote from Zvi’s blogpost, On Dragon Army
This isn’t quite the four horsemen of the apocalypse, but it still seems more reminiscent of an example referenced in Meditations on Moloch, where everyone shocks themselves eight hours per day so everyone else doesn’t kill them, than a desired feature of a thriving community.
These background effects not only magnify the original problems caused by existing demographic tendencies, but actively put up barriers to addressing them. When a negative attribute present in some individuals becomes woven into the cultural fabric, it becomes much more difficult to unravel. Even if it makes the community worse off on the whole, individuals can benefit in ways analogous to special interest groups. People with the trait that was previously frowned upon now get accommodations around it, ranging from a free pass to continue the behaviour, to resources being spent in order to limit its repercussions. People who can leverage the new incentive structure for their own benefit find their way into the community. These special interests like the new status quo, and will often resist any efforts to take away those advantages. After all, it is in their interest to do so.
Squared founder effects are present in other areas too, and cultural blindspots often mean people aren’t even aware of their repercussions. For example:
Social turnover has increased to the point where it has major effects on incentives
This section requires some introduction, given the heading is semantically empty without some background familiarity. To maximise understanding, I’m taking it right back to fundamentals, and working up from there:
Turnover, in a general sense, is the rate that something is replaced by something else.
Communities, especially culturally individualistic ones, generally have a neutral attitude to turnover. People coming and going is seen as the inherent state of things. Values naturally shift as existing members age or drift out, and fresh recruits have new ideas and priorities. Resisting cultural change is seen as futile at best, and stodgy conservatism at worst. Trying to keep people within a community is the sort of thing cults do.
The business world, however, has a much greater awareness of turnover’s direct costs and wider consequences. Well-functioning organisations develop strategies designed to reduce both its rate and impact. They realise turnover can greatly inhibit an organisation’s ability to function.
The causes of community turnover, and why some places and time periods have more of it than others, are perhaps best left to another essay. For now, here are some of turnover’s effects in the business world:
Loss of insider knowledge
Any information, be it strategies, heuristics, existing problems or operating procedures that don’t get written down are wiped from the collective memory of the organisation when a key employee leaves. This knowledge must be independently rediscovered each time this happens, incurring large opportunity costs for the organization.
Ramp up time for new recruits
It takes a while for new people to both absorb the domain specific information needed to make productive contributions, and become accustomed to the cultural norms of the organisation. This reduces average productive output as those new hires are working at a reduced capacity until they get up to speed.
Reduced coordination between individuals
The longer you know someone, the more detailed your mental model of them becomes. As you understand their idiosyncrasies and motives they become easier to communicate with. You are more likely to draw the right semantic conclusions from their words; the gap between what they mean and what you think they mean decreases. As you observe them cooperate with you on tasks, you can get a sense of their abilities and their trustworthiness. This is a mutual process that builds social capital, and that capital generates returns in the form of higher group productivity.
This process takes time, partially because it relies on deeper social instincts, but also because it requires the gathering of illegible information. Creating accurate information that could be transmitted to new employees is completely unfeasible. You can’t articulate how to adapt to someone’s idiosyncrasies for someone who isn’t you, and even if you could, most people couldn’t learn the same by reading about it. You can’t put "The CMO gives fake deadlines to the engineering team to make them work faster" in the induction handbook. As such, when an employee leaves, any social capital they have built is wiped from the balance sheet.
These effects also apply to communities in similar ways, with many similar consequences. In addition, there is a particularly damaging one that applies to all human social structures:
Significant turnover incentivises defection
If you are playing a million rounds of prisoner’s dilemma against an agent running the tit for tat strategy, it would be irrational to defect against them. If however, your game partner changes every round, you are incentivised to defect at every opportunity.
This is a pretty black and white scenario; most situations in the real world aren’t so binary.
Instead, this can be thought of as the extreme ends of a continuous spectrum:
On the right, where you are playing a million games, you have a strong incentive to build up a reputation for prosocial behaviour. On the left, where you are only playing a single game in isolation, timelines are so short that reputation capital has a 100% discount rate. Defecting in the present is rational if your future reputation is literally worthless.
As turnover increases, the mean amount of time an individual stays within a group decreases. The number of interactions (games) you can expect to have with each person drops. This moves the incentive structure leftward and brings along many of its consequences.
You could also add to the graph "maximum civilizational complexity at a given level of technology". The longer your timeline, the more social, institutional and financial investment you can make for the future. If you expect your great grandchildren to live on a plot of land, you can spend a year digging foundations for a castle. If you only expect to be there a week, you’d be better off booking an Airbnb.
This can go a long way towards explaining why many people hark back to the 1950s as a golden era - it’s the last time in living cultural memory we had low turnover. Technology has partially mitigated its effects, but is yet to fully substitute for the long term coordination abilities we had back then.
Maybe this is what Moldbug meant by "Cthulhu always swims left"?
Probably not, but it’s kinda fun to think about. If you’d prefer something a bit more plausible, consider how the turnover hypothesis can explain quite a wide variety of phenomena:
False economies - Decreasing quality of consumer goods
As the value of reputation decreases, the incentives to prioritize product features that can’t be listed on the packaging weaken. Quality is sacrificed for sales gimmicks and lower sticker prices. Businesses produce goods that are just good enough to sell, and pass through the legal warranty period, if applicable. Brands that had a longstanding reputation for quality saw less value being attributed to that and responded rationally by cannibalizing excess brand reputation in order to become more competitive.
Result: Businesses have to spend more on manipulative advertising to acquire new customers as they can no longer rely on quality design and engineering to keep old ones coming back. Rational customers have to constantly compare individual products rather than assume a brand’s entire product line is of good quality. Products have a lower ticket price but higher yearly cost of ownership due to requiring frequent replacement. The only group better off is landfill owners.
Human capital coordination problems - Massive college graduate underemployment.
Universities don’t teach you the skills needed in the business world. What’s forgotten is that they never did, it’s only just recently that there have been consequences for that.
New employees require training before they become productive, and this requires expenditure in both wages during training and opportunity costs of other employees needing to teach them.
Back in the good ol’ days, it didn’t matter if students graduated with no relevant skills. Companies didn’t expect it, they didn’t need them to. If a new employee was going to be there for the long haul, it didn’t matter if it took them a while to become productive. Net losses were totally fine for a few years when an employee would be contributing to the bottom line for decades.
It’s only recently, where business models have become less reliable, and skills become obsolete every five years, that employers demand recruits who can hit the ground running. On short time horizons, you need people who can solve your current problems and you need them to do it now. Even if you have giant cash reserves just sitting there, using it to train new recruits in presently-needed skills is a waste of money if you can’t anticipate your future demands for them.
Result: businesses which can’t plan for the future, a qualifications arms race, tulip subsidies, the quarter life crisis epidemic, deadweight losses from an underutilized workforce, locusts, darkness, death of firstborn sons.
Weakened social bonds - Most people have very few close friends
As people enter adulthood in modern life, they find it very difficult to make new friends.
It becomes hard enough that intelligent adults often seek expert advice on how to go about doing something that was so natural to them in childhood.
Have they somehow lost their friend making talents along the way?
No, the thing they lost was the conditions allowing friendships to form.
Up until graduation, you had been in a shared environment where you naturally interacted with the same group of people on a regular basis. There were large amounts of free time for you to talk to people, and you were in an environment where your peers were, to some extent, on the same team, and you shared most of the day to day joys and frustrations of that social environment. This convenient proximity, shared context and alignment of interests was a fertile breeding ground for friendship.
As you enter adulthood in today’s world, you will find that the tables are turned. Making friends used to be easy. Now it requires significant effort and planning just to keep the ones you have.
To start with, your 3+ year shared social environment where everyone is basically in the same boat is now gone. School has been replaced by the office, an environment where friendship-making is much more treacherous. There are hierarchies, co-workers look out for their own self-interest, staff transfer to different companies and departments regularly. The environment where you spend most of your waking hours actively discourages sincere friendships from forming.
Assuming you didn’t take a hosepipe to the web of strong connections you spent twenty years making in order to take a promising job offer in another state like cosmopolitan culture told you to, you still need to maintain your existing friendships. If you want to keep those bonds strong, you need to put it on your to do list. Another responsibility of adult life, that needs attending to when you get home after a long day at work and you’d really prefer to sit in front of a screen and vegetate.
Even if you have the spare willpower, and got the message from waitbutwhy while you were still young enough to do something about it, you are still up against strong cultural forces determined to rip your friendships apart.
A friend gets offered a job in another state? It doesn’t seem like a big deal at the time. It’s not like you are cutting off contact. But as time goes on, and you see each other less and less, your friendship enters LDR mode and System 1 enthusiasms wither in a gradual war of attrition. He probably won’t figure out what he’s lost until it’s too late.
On the other side of the cultural war? Too bad, even if you don’t hate them, they now lowkey hate you and everything you stand for.
Gets married? Even if they don’t move away, the cultural default is to prioritize the partner over maintaining a social life. Your friendship slides down the list of priorities until it ceases to be a priority at all.
Has a baby? With work and other life obligations, not to mention the child-hostile-by-default nature of most social gatherings, good luck scheduling a suitable time to see them.
Just find yourself drifting apart over time? Interests and values naturally diverge at a rapid rate compared to the pre-internet era where people shared a large informational context. Good luck getting back on the same wavelength.
You want to take conscious steps to preserve friendships as a large source of happiness in your life? If they don’t think you are weird or desperate for wanting to do such a thing, you’ll still be putting in a larger and larger share of the organizational effort as time goes on, leaving you wondering how much they really care.
Suddenly you’re 35 and you have no idea how you became so isolated.
If you are reading this site, you are lucky. Not just because you have access to some of the best insights on the planet, but because you have been exposed to a shared context strong enough to form deeper friendships out of*. Most interests don’t have enough of the right ingredients to form subcultures. Despite the popularity of Herman Miller office chairs, there aren’t many houseshares formed around a love of the Aeron. For an interest to form a subculture, it needs to be broad and distinct enough to stand out from universal values.
Many people take for granted how special rationalism is in this regard. The usual outcome when you divide people down to atoms is not individuals using their new-found mobility to sort into groups most suited to their idiosyncrasies, but a fragmented society of individuals, unable to really sync up with anyone.
Result: Vast swaths of people living lives of quiet desperation and a Beatles song unsure of their origins.
*I’m not against the sentiment that "maybe the real rationalism is the friends we made along the way". In fact, I’d like to preserve it. But the only way to preserve rationalism’s ability to do this in the long term is by keeping the mission, preventing our values from being diluted until they are no longer distinct from the default cosmopolitan culture. If you lose the mission, it isn’t long before a lack of differentiation means you lose the community as well.
Customer service - Loss of personal touch
Japanese society is, by modern western standards, very low turnover. It has many elements that clash with what could be called "liberal enlightenment values". However, there are elements caused by low turnover incentive structures that produce undeniably good outcomes.
Here’s an excerpt from the article Doing Business in Japan which recounts the writer’s experiences of customer service there:
Result: The subtext between us and our bank managers is far less homoerotic.
Conclusion and further examples
Turnover is a specific example of the concept Change (for the sake of change) Is Bad, consider this a public service reminder.
Now that turnover has been solidified in the abstract, I’ll introduce a few examples of where this has interacted with our community:
From one of Zvi’s comments:
A reply to it along the same lines:
Aside from luring people to Berkeley under false premises being bad for individuals, this also has effects on the people who remain in their local communities. As I mentioned earlier, the more uncertain the future is, the less investment you can make for it. Whatever the goals of the Berkeley community are, they should not include forcing others to build theirs above a rapidly eroding cliff edge.
Excerpt from a comment on the original Project Hufflepuff post, noticing that people have figured out how to exploit conditions caused by (and further exacerbating) turnover:
Raemon, Notes from the Hufflepuff Unconference (Part 1) showing an example of the high discount rate people have on prior reputation:,
The last two examples are particularly striking. They not only show effects which could not exist in low turnover conditions, but a failure of any kind of system to deal with them.
This leads onto the next section.
Reduced ability to mitigate problems
The environment of Berkeley exacerbates the aversion to confrontation. This is partially through squared founder effects, but also due to the background cultural norms.
This makes it a hell of a lot harder to address negative externalities being produced if doing so might cause some bad vibes.
As a collective, y’all need to grow a pair. But any individual who gains the resolve in spite of prevailing norms faces an uphill battle convincing anyone to rock the boat.
Until this changes, problems that require this method are only going to keep piling up.
If you want to have rental agreements, and to benefit from the ability to make such agreements, then you need to enforce them when they are violated. Not doing so sends a signal that they don’t actually mean anything; that people will not have to pay for costs they impose on others.
This is basically the iterated prisoner’s dilemma scenario where you keep accepting "oops, I didn’t mean to press the defect button!" as a reason not to give the punishment you’ve pre-committed to making. The game theory incentives don’t cease to apply just because someone is an Ingroup Member™.
If that happened in my grouphouse, and the person was not suffering financial hardship and instead decided to "...just kinda leave", then they would be paying the full cost stipulated on their contract. If they refused to do so, they would be prosecuted through the courts and listed on a publicly visible wall of shame for a five year period.
Sadly, I do not have the mandate to take those actions against the people in the example.
There are other problems with non-confrontation, too. Some quotes from Sarah’s In Defense of Individualist Culture:
Even if individualist culture comes out on top overall as Sarah claims, the last line I quoted has brutal consequences for anyone who didn’t subconsciously absorb how to behave in a social setting.
Instead of granting permission for people to tell them harsh but constructive things about their behaviours, they must either tolerate them forever, or discretely ostracise them.
What once could have been mostly addressed with a few months of uncomfortable mentoring now becomes, if they can’t solve the problem independently, a near incurable social leprosy that confines them to the outskirts of any functional community they wish to be a part of.
Even when solving a problem doesn’t require violating social norms, all problems require a nonzero amount of time and energy to fix. The amount of things an individual can solve varies based on their free time, work obligations and spare cognitive resources.
Now what effects might the economic realities of Berkeley have on that?
Economics - Time, Money, Spoons and future plans
Not to put too fine a point on it, but basing a community that’s not focused on maximising gross income in the most expensive city in North America doesn’t strike me as particularly rational.
Aside from the obvious fact that living in Berkeley is really expensive and people would prefer it if things were not so expensive, it’s the second order effects that are of greater concern.
Effects on time
Consider this hypothetical scenario:
A talented software engineer from Ohio, who writes blog posts and data analyses as a hobby, catches the attention of the Berkeley community. He has read all of the Sequences and has a willingness to Shut up and Multiply. He takes the claims of Berkeley’s superiority seriously, and after a short period of consideration, bites the bullet and decides to move.
Due to his impressive talents and phone interview performance, he manages to line up a job at Facebook’s Headquarters in Menlo Park. He dutifully hands in his notice at his low stress job in Ohio. They’re sad to see him go but they understand his decision; they can’t compete with the six figure salaries offered on the west coast.
He packs up his car with his most valued possessions and drives cross country to the supposed land of milk and honey. There is a room in a Berkeley grouphouse waiting for him.
There is a temporary decrease in his online presence, given the upheaval of moving. But everything will eventually return to normal, probably.
After the dust has settled, and months pass with nary a blog update, he recalls why he came to Berkeley: he came to to play his part in making the world a better place. Yet somehow, he now spends his creative energies implementing software features designed to get users to spend as much time as possible on Facebook in order to increase ad revenue. He lives in Berkeley. Facebook HQ is a 34 mile and 90 minute commute. Fifteen whole hours a week are spent in traffic.
Of the 112 conscious hours in every week, very few are his own.
50 hours are spent in the office
15 hours driving
7 hours in transition time between trying to fall asleep and getting in the car the next morning
5 hours of work emails
10 hours doing food shopping, cleaning, laundry and general yak shaving
7 hours cooking and eating evening meals
That leaves 18 hours with which to do everything else. 18 hours to socialise with housemates, exercise, go to events and stay up to date with his RSS feed. No wonder his blog is neglected.
Effect on spoons/ability to do anything else
In addition to having so little spare time, those eighteen hours are hours of cognitively drained, borderline exhaustion. There is talk that Berkeley has lost the mission, but under those constraints I’d find it remarkable if anyone could remember the mission.
With so little spare resources, it’s not a question of resisting Moloch. It’s how many months before you stumble, fall and get incorporated into his flesh.
In these conditions, you are severely lacking Slack:
If you and everyone else in the community is exhausted, you don’t have the time or energy to resist outside pressures. The community will move in whatever direction the social winds decide to take it, without regard for the eventual outcome. Even if people wanted to push the mission forward, without slack they do not have the spare resources to do so.
Advancing rationality requires righteous dudes.
Money constraints
If we take as a given that sporadic efforts to advance the craft aren’t enough, and that it is an important goal to pursue, then people should donate money to support people working on it full-time.
Unfortunately, supporting individuals located in Berkeley is rather expensive.
And those six figure salaries don’t go as far as you’d think.
(I’d give you hard numbers for this, but nobody responded to my request for data*.)
In addition, for-profit rationality projects based in Berkeley are under much greater pressures to produce something that people can charge for. Any project started on savings has a much shorter runway with which to produce results. Under these conditions, there is much greater pressure to produce something, and quickly.
This often leads to the production of a symbolic representation of the thing, rather than the thing itself
This could go some way to explaining why CFAR, prior to its AI pivot, never really managed to produce much applied rationality. Doing so would have required going back to the drawing board and completely overhauling the curriculum, figuring out how to teach writing instead of literary criticism. It would require throwing out a proven business model, laying off the staff with mostly meta-level skills (judging by the roster that’s almost all of them) and taking the massive reputation hit of admitting failure of that magnitude. It would have probably gone bankrupt before it managed to live up to its acronym.
I don’t have sufficient inside information to say with any certainty that this was a reason for the pivot, but if it is, you can hardly point fingers. They are no more worthy of blame for this than people living under the Siege of Leningrad were for eating their pet cats.
*Perhaps they had too little slack to respond to data requests?
Future plans/life goals
Living in grouphouses with your friends is fun, but not everyone wishes to do so in perpetuity. There may come a time when you develop other, more traditional goals.
What if you want to want to get married, buy a house and raise a family?
Assuming you are a straight male, you first have to find someone you want to get married to. This isn’t an easy task at the best of times, and the tech industry’s effect on the gender ratio hardly helps matters.
Even once you have found someone, the only way to own a house in Berkeley is to inherit one or sell your startup to Google.
I’m only half joking. According a quick glance of Zillow most three bed houses are priced around one million dollars. In addition to needing a $200k deposit, you’d need a combined income of that just to qualify for the mortgage.
Even at today’s historically anomalous interest rates, you’d be shelling out around $48,000 after tax every year just on the loan, without accounting for maintenance, insurance or municipal taxes.
If like many rationalists you want to homeschool your children, one of you needs to be making around $200k per year just to live at a normal middle class standard of living.
Even if you do plan to send your children into the Prussian institution, up until that age, unless you can afford for one of you to stay at home, you are paying around $22,800 yearly per child to put them in daycare.
Surely this insanity will stop when planning departments see reason and approve more housing? Sadly, no.
The housing crisis is politically unsolvable
Contrary to perceptions, high paid tech workers make up quite a small percentage of the population in the Bay Area.
How small? Surely it can’t be less than a third?
It’s around twelve percent.
The rest are some combination of welfare recipients in rent-controlled apartments and locals who bought their houses way before google became a verb in the dictionary. In addition, there are people who bought in when houses were only $750k and have debt obligations resting on the premise that their tent made from two by fours and vinyl cladding is worth that sum.
These voters have a hell of a lot to lose if the current red tape is repealed. No petition can change that fact.
The coalition of established interests can outvote and outspend any effort put forth by housing reformists. So long as each homeowner stands to lose six figure sums from their net worth if they let the petitions go through unopposed, there will be a permanent deadlock on the status quo.
The economic and cultural realities of Berkeley cannot be changed, those realities can only change you.
Culture - Not taking the Sequences seriously
A surprising amount of issues raised previously were warned about in the Sequences.
Yudkowsky had the wisdom to document these pitfalls and attempt countermeasures, but going back they read more like foreboding than problems we managed to avert. As a collective, it seems we went "Sure dad, I won’t take the cheese off the platform", and the minute he looked away we were already flailing limbs around the room, trying to get the mousetrap off our finger.
Numerous examples come to mind, examples of things even prominent community members didn’t seem to really absorb. Eliezer, someone who is dedicating their life to AI safety, warned about the danger of the AI meme sucking the life out of other causes in 2009. Way before CFAR sidelined applied rationality Way before EA started to shift focus towards Xrisk, before the term "Effective Altruism" was even proposed. If nothing else, just warning this might happen demonstrated a remarkable amount of foresight for 2009; like saying Bitcoin will someday be worth thousands of dollars.
Lest you think he got lucky, or that I’m generalising from too few examples, what about the warning that communities often die because they won’t enforce standards? Or that to actually advance the craft of rationality you have to give a shit about something besides intellectual masturbation? Or that you can’t just stay in the comfort of the meta level, and that to produce real results you need to create object level craft that is relevant in the near future? Or the timeless observation that those who can’t do, teach?
You probably get the point.
The accusation in the title might be a little hard to believe, given how prominently the Sequences are displayed on this website.
Surely LessWrong would be the place where people took them seriously?
Not really. The Sequences might be front and center, but most people read parts of them when they joined, and felt they had done their duty. I suppose it’s like expecting Evangelical culture to be dictated by the book put behind every church pew.
Ignoring literal interpretations of dusty old texts in favour of the subcultural zeitgeist is the default path of all groups. Perhaps it was a little naive to expect us to be different...
Recap
Okay, we’ve covered quite a lot of ground here. Many detours have been taken to provide enough context to answer "what went wrong?" that it’s hard to remember where we’ve been.
Here is a summary of the central concepts.
We lost the mission because:
Except that we weren’t trying to do something routine, so we probably didn’t need five out of six. Two or three would have been enough for us to fall.
What can we do about this?
To be honest, I don’t know what to tell the people of Berkeley.
You’re fighting an uphill battle in terms of demographics. The overlap between the demographic-related problems of the rationalist community and the area’s software industry is large. Vast quantities of resources have been thrown towards the goal of making programming more accessible to different demographics, with little in the way of progress.
In terms of environment, the economic and cultural realities present in Berkeley cannot be changed. You cannot vote to solve the housing problem. You can’t insulate yourself from epistemic threats. You are outnumbered and outgunned by established interests who don’t have any sympathy for our cause. Living there also means that a large proportion of your energy has to be spent staying alive, leaving you with weakened ability to address any issues you encounter.
In terms of culture; shall I tell you to go read the Sequences again? Half of you didn’t even read them in the first place. I mean, maybe if everyone went away and did that then things might improve slightly, but the real value is in implementing them. Aside from AI related things, Eliezer failed to inspire people to create the art the first time around. He signposted many potential pitfalls. We still ended up falling in most of them. You didnt listen to Yudkowsky’s repeated pleas to think of rationalism as systematized winning rather than talking like Spock. You sure as hell aren’t going to listen to mine.
If it’s any consolation, Berkeley’s economic and social problems are present in most other rationalist hubs too, just to a slightly lesser extent. What’s true of Berkeley is mostly true of Seattle, Boston and London.
Furthermore, any attempt to address these problems over the internet is futile. If it was possible to fix things with a few blog posts, someone would have already managed it. It’s pretty much a running joke at this point to say "I’ve outlined some vague details on how to solve the problem, someone should really get around to solving this".
So I’m not going to.
Instead, I’ve been creating an alternative solution elsewhere. I’ve been creating, not "I’m going to create". Too many projects ride the early wave of publicity and fall apart before ever making it to shore*. Far too many initiatives are announced, hoping that someone out there will finally take the initiative.
I am personally taking initiative. I’ve been doing so for the entirety of 2017. This essay was not written as a eulogy, but a reconnaissance mission. Sun Tzu once said "Know your enemy and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles". Even if you have no interest in assisting my efforts, hopefully the information presented will be some assistance to yours.
If you personally intend to fix things in Berkeley, maybe I could give you some general advice. I could, but I don’t plan to. Aside from it adding two more cents to a pile big enough to put a kid through Harvard, if you need me to tell you what to do, you're not yet up to the task.
The rest of the essay is mainly focused on my project-specific solutions. If you’re curious about joining me, or are working on something similar and wish to steal my ideas, read on.
*The initial team has already moved to the alternate location.
The Craft and the Community - Resurrection
Intro
To have the best chance of success, you need to put as many factors on your side as possible. If you are attempting to climb a mountain, it would be unwise to fill your backpack with lead weights. Getting up there is hard enough. You don’t get any points for masochism.
To do better than Berkeley, we need to improve our Demographics. We need to be in a Location that allows us substantial slack with which to resist external incentives, and doesn’t constantly work to undermine our values. We need to create a strong Culture that upholds rationalist principles, that can stand strong in the face of entropic forces. A culture where implicit values don’t diverge from stated principles, where the ideology and the movement march in lockstep. A culture where incentive structures are intentionally designed to produce good outcomes, one that rewards beneficial actions and punishes harmful ones. A community where you don’t have to choose between doing the right thing and acting in your own self interest.
These are lofty aspirations. I’m not naive enough to think we will ever reach the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
The thing is, we don’t have to. Each step towards that ideal is an incremental improvement upon which further steps can be taken. Even if we never arrive at the summit of Everest, Base Camp is still five thousand metres above the waterline.
As in the previous section, my strategies are outlined under the same broad headings.
Demographics - Getting a broad range of talents
This project doesn’t have a HR department. Doing tickbox diversity is not our goal.
Often underrepresented demographics have good reasons to be absent. Recruiting more violent criminals to reach parity with the general population is not a worthwhile endeavour.
The goal is to recruit not just underrepresented demographics, but undervalued ones. The rationalist community overlooks many of the strengths and perspectives not present in its core demographic, which limits its potential when it encounters an obstacle that requires talents besides logical analysis or writing code.
Related to that, there is a strong focus on narrowing the gender gap. Balancing the ratio will bring valuable strengths* and perspectives as well as allowing the full set of human needs to be met within the community. In addittion to allowing more people to get their romantic needs fulfilled, it lessens the diversion of attention and resources away from collectively shared goals. If potential partners are scarce then individuals will spend a large amount of resources competing for them in whatever way possible. This scarcity mindset exacerbates status competitions that corrupt rationalist values and weaken community cohesion. Even if you were one of the chosen few who are getting your romantic needs met, you woud still have to live in an environment where such competitions take place.
So how would you go about doing this?
*No, really. There’s a reason why women earn more than men in their 20’s. Women as a group are more conscientious and have better coordination skills, which are more valuable in large organizations. These are also skills which our community seriously lack.
Focus on in-person recruitment
Assuming you pick a location that has a wide variety of non-tech employment sectors, it will have a more balanced demographic to recruit from than Berkeley or the internet.
In addition, introducing someone to the concepts of rationality is far easier when you have an existing offline connection. Plenty of people operate using the heuristic that "If someone on the internet claims to have a grand overarching philosophy that solves everything, they are a lunatic". Given the track record of these claims, this is a pretty reasonable one. You can have much better success proposing unconventional ideas by being face-to-face and appearing competent, sane and likeable. If they find you trustworthy, people are more likely to give you the benefit of the doubt, remaining open minded long enough to understand ideas they would have otherwise dismissed.
People you attract from the local area will also encounter less friction when joining your community - if they want to take part, they won’t need to buy a plane ticket. People who haven’t just moved cities can often refer other people from their existing social network, in addition to having high value contacts that would be otherwise inaccessible, given their typically busy schedules.
The people who go to in-person meetups also have a higher proportion of traits underrepresented in the more internet-based demographic. As a collective, people who attend events are more extroverted, more enthusiastic, less anxious, more action-focused. They also have a more even gender balance. Traits, as a community, we could do with more of.
You shouldn’t just restrict yourself to the people who attend your meetups. There are other environments where you are likely to bump into people interested in your community. These vary by location, and are often hard to find when you are explicitly looking for them. Instead, being cognizant as you go about your day-to-day activities of places that contain a high proportion of people compatible with your values.
Create better introductory materials
Needing to read the Sequences is a bottleneck preventing far too many people from being part of our community*. Having to work your way through over two thousand pages of cognitively demanding text to evaluate if rationality is worthwhile or not is a pretty poor sales pitch, so it is unsurprising that few people take up the offer. Initially enthusiastic people who would otherwise become valuable community members fail to see any returns on their initial efforts, so give up early. Any demographic who reads to acquire information, rather than just for entertainment, struggles to get early returns from rationality.
If a Rationality 101 can be created that’s under a hundred pages in length** - an introductory guide that distills only the most valuable concepts and can quickly demonstrate concrete personal benefits whenever its concepts are applied - the bottleneck will be removed.
Rationality really is a common interest of many causes. The failure is communication, not a lack of practical benefit. The Sequences are tailored to the demographic that sees themselves as logical and analytical, enjoys science fiction, and is at the very least undeterred by reddit style atheism. Writing for a more general audience will help.
*I’m not contradicting what I said earlier. The Sequences are valuable, and should be read by longstanding members at least twice. I’m merely taking issue with it being an initial, albeit poorly enforced, requirement. A community familiar with trivial inconveniences should have no problem seeing why I think this.
**This is not the same as trying to take the 2400 page AI to Zombies, that relies on advanced concepts familiar mostly to 3SD autodidacts, and trying to compact and simplify it into 10 cracked.com articles. All previous attempts to do things like this have struggled massively. A different approach would be something more like taking all the visible parts that rationalists use on a regular basis, and teaching just those things. Perhaps a barebones curriculum would be something like:
Discovering the reasons that cause people to leave
Most startups obsessively track customer retention. They track quantitative metrics like new users, average rating and click through rate. They also pay attention to user feedback. What made them use the app? What features would they like to see? Are there issues impacting the customer’s experience?
The benefits of this practice don’t cease to apply just because you’re building a community rather than a web app. The "customer experience" of a community is just as important, it just has a different name and a different set of priorities.
While there is no need to chase metrics as aggressively as a startup, you need to know what things have an impact on your retention rate. This applies on both the micro and macro scale. If someone leaves your project, you need to find out why. You also need to find out what causes people to leave the wider community, especially those who belong to underrepresented demographics.
As such, here are some examples I could find:
Both of the above points would require a shift in the culture to allow someone to confront them. Until then, people who are fully on board with the concept of rationalism, but are unwilling to tolerate those issues, will continue leaving.
Champion existing members displaying the traits you want to see more of
To make newcomers from rare demographics feel welcome, often all it takes is for them to see one person similar to them being valued in spite of their differences. It’s certainly the case for me.
I’ve always felt like a bit of an outsider in the rationalist community, despite being here for several years. If I attend a solstice, I’ll most likely be the only person in the room with a distinctive regional accent. Despite being superficially similar in appearance to most attendees, it’s unlikely I’ll end up in conversation with someone who shares my intuitions or background.
I’ve always found writing quite hard*. I struggle to write in the style that comes so naturally to many of you. I cannot think in lines of academic dispassion, only translate after the fact. This puts me at quite the disadvantage in any scenario where communication is implicitly expected to conform to that standard.
Despite liking rationalism, I find the cultural defaults of most rationalists quite alien.
A side effect of that is that this project has become a bit of a beacon for those types of people. Without revealing any specific details, the first 75% of the initial movers unknowingly shared a trait with an estimated occurrence in the community of less than 2%. Spooky.
Like attracts like; I’ve attracted a disproportionate percentage of people like me to this project by leading it. It seems possible that those effects could be replicated to some extent by encouraging people with other underrepresented traits to take on prominent roles in the project.**
*Believe it or not, it was my worst subject in school. And not because I was absolutely stellar at everything else, we’re talking bad as in 35th percentile of the population bad. Getting to where I am today required a lot of practice and purpose to motivate my efforts.
**Care needs to be taken not to create roles purely for the sake of inclusivity. We don’t want to end up the equivalent of a school nativity play with Mary, Joseph, baby Jesus, three crocodiles, two ostriches and a dancing banana.
Create a community those people would want to be a part of
It’s one thing to realise what those people offer us. It’s entirely another to question what we offer them.
If you scratch your head, or come up with answers like "community" or “interesting conversations” you are lacking a good value proposition. If that’s all you have to offer, why would they choose to join your particular community when there are hundreds of others offering the same thing?
To save this essay from getting even longer, I’m going to focus on two specific demographic groups: Feminine/people oriented women and Already successful people
Feminine/people oriented women
To establish background context, I’d suggest reading Gender Imbalances Are Mostly Not Due To Offensive Attitudes and then watching (sorry, no transcript available) this 2006 Google TechTalk On Girls, Boys, and IT Careers made prior to the Overton window shift.
It may occur to you that for a community with such a large gender gap, we have a remarkable number of people-oriented elements. It strikes me as plausible that in today’s atomized world, there are several strategies that could be implemented to become a significantly more competitive option for this demographic:
More emphasis on norms that promote community
Not undervaluing female coded values, interests and skillsets
Better onboarding and recruitment - Communicating our benefits
If you’ll forgive me for the crudeness, there is a danger this goal gets simplified to "say whatever things will get our dicks wet".
This is the wrong mindset, it’s probably not even the right one if that’s your terminal goal. If you want good outcomes in the long run, you need to focus on providing long term value, not generating short term interest by whatever means possible. If women who are incompatible with our values find their way into our community, they should be swiftly ejected, without regard for its effects on the yearly census data.
We don’t benefit from symbolic diversity, so it makes little sense to encourage it.
Already successful people
Successful people are almost always busy with something, and as such they place a high value on their time. They don’t suffer fools gladly, and have many competing opportunities not available to you or I. To get a feel for the dynamics at play here, read the sequence post Competent Elites assuming you haven’t already done so.
Attracting these people isn’t an easy task at the best of times, given everyone else is also competing for their attention. However, I have a few speculative guesses on how you can tip the scales in your favour:
That last point is important, especially for us. Building a community that supports success in any area requires it to be more than a community for philosophy nerds. If we want to preserve the cultural capability and value of achievement, we need to prevent brain drain effects by building a community where members who become successful don’t want to leave. An environment where people can grow without worrying they they’ll grow out of us. Somewhere so satisfying that newly available opportunities still can’t compete with the place you’ve come to call home.
Environment - Manchester works for us, we don’t work for Manchester
If you have any kind of bohemian streak, the knee-jerk response to the inadequacies of modern civilization is to run as far away from it as you possibly can.
Unfortunately, there isn’t really anywhere for you to run to. You can’t return to the jungle. Even if you find an area unclaimed by civilization, your pasty-ass complexion* will need more than a loincloth to survive the equatorial sun.
Nor are you better off going back to the land. Ask anyone who has tried to grow their own food; self-sufficiency is far more difficult than it appears. People who are accustomed to the efficiency of modern supply chains greatly underestimate how much time and money is needed to survive without the grocery store.
The only way around civilization is through it.
The path around the circumference is littered with numerous skulls, intentional communities that tried to deny economic realities ended up much the same as governments who dealt with their budget shortfalls by printing another zero on the currency.
Given this state of affairs, how do you make the most of the situation?
By recognising that you don’t need to live in teepees to be as content as the Comanche Indians. Just like you don’t need to believe in Jesus to help the poor, you often don’t need the superfluous trappings associated with an outcome in order to achieve it.
In a more actionable sense, you figure out the constraints and time horizons you are working with, and you find the environment most likely to offer your community the best outcomes for its goals.
For us, the constraints are mostly financial, the time horizon is decades, and the goals can be approximated by the phrase "human flourishing".
*Sorry Alison, acknowledging your extra melanin would interfere with the narrative flow.
Why Manchester?
Prior to settling here, I wrote a fifteen page google document laying out my research quite roughly but in substantial detail. I have no intentions of rewriting that anytime soon, but I will elaborate on the selection criteria mentioned in the previous section.
To deal with our financial constraints i.e. that most of us need to work in order to survive, we prioritized places that had:
A low cost of living
Advancing the craft of rationality requires slack, so picking a location where living costs are relatively low gives us more freedom to pursue things that won’t earn money or will not do so in the near future.
An underappreciated portion of the budget for Americans is the cost of reasonable quality healthcare. Even the cheapest locations in the US have monthly insurance premiums that are almost as much as rent, even after subsidies. Healthcare in the UK is free for EU citizens. Non-EU citizens pay ~£60/month for insurance on >6 month stays, £200/year on temporary work visas and zero if they reside in the UK permanently.
Something else that deserves consideration is the tax rate at various levels of income. We want to be viable for people at both ends of the income spectrum, which means prioritizing places with little taxation of low incomes and reasonable rates across the board. In the UK people earning less than £1000 ($1300) gross income are paying less than 5% tax and people earning $100k (£76k) a year only pay 32% overall.
I am yet to complete a precise breakdown of living costs between Manchester and other locations like London or Berkeley, but as a rough figure, my total expenses, that include every bit of non-business spending, come in at slightly under £500/month ($660) when amoratized.
Decent hourly wages, and good job opportunities in our chosen fields
If not everyone is working remotely, you need to take wages into account when comparing purchasing power. It doesn’t matter if living costs are $200 a month if the local jobs only pay $1 an hour. You also need to pick a country where members will be legally permitted to work. These considerations ruled out most locations outside Europe for us.
Given the type of jobs our existing members do, we have to be in a place where there are good local opportunities to do them. This necessitated being in a large urban area.
On a timeline of decades, other factors come into play:
Stability of institutions and rule of law - You can’t accurately predict the future, but you can familiarize yourself with base rates. The last revolution in the UK was in 1688. The last time Oxford university had to suspend teaching was during the St Scholastica Day riot in 1355. Order and stability are heavily embedded values in the British culture.
Visa uncertainty over Brexit - Most of the key members hold UK passports. The risk that would have been generated had we based the project somewhere on the continent would have outweighed any marginal gains from doing so.
Housing supply - even after a decade of reurbanization, there is still enough housing stock available in Manchester, furthermore, the local government is greenlighting a substantial amount of development and has plans to continue doing so. House prices are below the UK average and are expected to stay that way. This is not the case for Berlin where low prices are caused by a glut of Soviet-built apartment blocks that are rapidly being occupied.
Future economic prosperity - being in a place where currently good circumstances aren’t a temporary alignment of the stars is needed if you want people to risk putting down roots. They need to know they are putting them in good soil. That what we are building isn’t doomed from the start by looming economic trends.
For the goal of human flourishing
Background Demographics
Priority was placed on locations with a diverse range of industries, as they bring talented people with a wide range of interests and skillsets to an area. This also keeps a good gender balance. There was also a strong preference for an english speaking majority. Aside from being able to get menial jobs to pay the bills, rationality is hard enough for people to understand as it is, you don’t need to add a language barrier on top of that.
Background culture
Not too atomized - Atomization is closely linked with turnover. This generally ruled out capital cities as they usually have a large proportion of people who moved there to pursue career goals. Human flourishing requires community, so it is unwise to try to create a community where norms that promote it are culturally discouraged.
A good public transport system
For a variety of reasons, car dependence is one of the factors that drive atomization and contribute to an increased rate of social turnover. Being cheaper than driving also helps.
A place with aesthetic beauty
Somewhere with a long architectural tradition and numerous old buildings increases its appeal to the creative class, helping to tip the scales in our favour. It’s one of the things Paul Graham recommends for trying to compete with silicon valley.
Culture - More productivity, less philosophy
If you want to beat the control group, you need to create a culture optimized for it. You can’t create human flourishing from the lowest common denominator present in our background demographics.
What does that even mean? How does someone go about creating a culture?
Just like intentional communities aren’t ones that formed by accident in some geographic location, an intentional culture is similar.
The purpose of an intentional culture is to stop values being dictated by happenstance.
At this point, the more socially adept readers are probably about ten seconds from posting this xkcd in the comment box.
They’re right, to a degree. You can’t just declare by fiat that from now on we are going to spend less time reading insight porn and more time doing useful work. Well, in a literal sense you can, but what will happen is most people will agree "Yes! This is a obviously useful rule that will make everyone better off" and then behave exactly as they did before.
This presents a dichotomy. On the one hand we have "everyone is doomed because people are slaves to their baser instincts" and on the other “if you post a manifesto on the internet then groups in verbal agreement will spontaneously reorganise to follow not only the letter but the spirit of the rules”. As with almost everything in life, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
As the xkcd points out, people are complicated. If you want to go about creating an intentional culture that actually fulfills its intentions, you need to have a decent grasp on how people and groups actually work. To pull something like this off, you need to be at least partly what I’d call a Ribbonfarm Sociopath.
This choice to label it sociopathy isn’t entirely mine, or Rao’s for that matter. This is the semantic hammer most people reach for when they get a glimpse of the man behind the curtain.
The reality is that civilization, as it exists today, relies heavily on the man behind the curtain in order to function.
I make no moral judgement on this, nor should you. It is a merely a description of current societal incentive structures.
I’m pretty sure that running civilization entirely on closed-source software is not the optimal end state, but right now, all effective leaders are still forced to rely on parts of it. The 2017 rationalist community in this regard is a lot like the state of open-source in the early 90s. There were promising moves in the right direction, but if you wanted to run an organization in that era, you still had to rely on tools made by Microsoft.
In a sense, the Sequences was for knowledge what the GNU project was for software.
It felt appropriate to name my project Kernel.
But that doesn’t make me Linus Torvalds, nor should it. An operating system that works on humans differs greatly than one designed for hardware.
I’m sure if you kidnapped 1993 Linus and tried to make him tell you how he was going to take open source from where it was then to where it was in 2003, he wouldn’t be able to tell you. Even if you somehow got him to write 5000 pages of information and advice, you wouldn’t be able to follow the same trajectory. At best, he could give you some pointers in the right direction.
As such, here are some components. Some assembly required:
A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy
Insights about rules, meta-rules and designing monkey-resistant social structures.
Culture is the behaviour you reward and punish
If you want a set of ideals to be followed, you need to create an incentive system that supports those ideals. You also need to be especially careful to reward the thing, only the thing and not the symbolic representation of the thing. If you do the latter, you will only ever get the symbolic version due to its lower cost of production.
80% of Your Culture is Your Founder
Subcultures are, by approximation, personality cults of their most prominent member.
A quick, label-heavy description of yours truly:
It doesn’t fit into the bullet point structure, but I feel it is also worth saying that this project isn’t some discardable stepping stone to bigger and better things, I’m fully intend to watch my grandkids grow up here.
Well-Kept Gardens Die By Pacifism/Geeks, MOPs, and sociopaths
You need to have a strategy in place for dealing with MOPs before you are overrun.
Our current plan is to formalise varying tiers of commitment, and design it so people can get out what they are willing to put in. There is the concern that people will think this is elitist or undemocratic. It is, and they will have to make peace with that fact unless they provide a viable alternative.
Homesteading the Noosphere
With very few notable exceptions, if you want to get anything done in the world more complex than disrupting Shia LaBeouf’s Trump protest, you need some form of centralised leadership. Without it you will get stuck on coordination problems and are unable to benefit from hard to vocalise intuitions, long term vision or any action which requires information in the category of things you cannot say.
Maybe Hanson’s Futarchy will someday be developed enough to make BDFLs obsolete.
Until then, this is basically a Chesterton’s fence that any rationalist project leader with enlightenment ideals sees, tries to think of why it might be a bad idea to tear it down, finds some reasonable objections to do so but finds them unconvincing, tears it down, then a few months later orchestrates a restoration and petitions the federal government to register this particular Chesterton’s fence as a national historic landmark.
The Sequences were an excellent piece of writing, and I found it quite useful to reread them again to assist with my efforts, but it’s worth saying that the Sequences are not enough. They describe the qualities of a basketball player in intricate detail, but you actually have to go out and practice, operationalize the advice to the neuromuscular level, in order to win any games.
I tried fruitlessly to work some of Ben Hoffman’s essays into memorable anecdotes, but his writing is particularly hard to take small quotes from without losing context, so all I can do is recommend you read the full articles. Some particularly relevant ones are The Quaker and the Parselmouth, Sabbath hard and go home and Why I am not a Quaker.
Recognize you don't always have the convenience of operating in abundance
It would be great if I could afford an editor*, and get someone with more verbal talents to explain the ideas and write them up. It would be great if I could give this another month, work in a few important afterthoughts, and provide enough clarification to anticipate all pedantry. It would be great if I could test this on focus groups, and remove any sticking points that cause people to dismiss my ideas out of hand before baring my soul to the world.
I don’t have those things. I can only hope that my passion somewhat makes up for my lack of polish.
This generalises. Sometimes in the course of achieving a goal you have to take actions you’d rather not take. You often have to operate with too little time, money and manpower. You can’t afford to spend a month weighing up the pros and cons of a decision due in the coming week.
*it seems this point was particularly inspiring/guilt-inducing and a swarm of friends stepped in to help, although pasting into the beta editor produced a whole load of extra errors, which have now been fixed, mostly. Particular credit is due to Greg C, Corwin D, Alex D and John W for this, thanks guys.
Conclusion
This is the longest essay I’ve ever written.
No matter where Rationalism decides to call home, it will be up against vast social and economic forces trying to push it back into equilibrium. Any individual or group which dares to stand up to Moloch will be engaged in a constant struggle for survival. They need all the help they can get.
If I were to include research, producing this ~20,000 word essay has taken over a thousand hours of my time. I didn’t write this simply to provide conversation fodder for a Berkeleyan social gathering.
I wrote this in an attempt to find kindred spirits. People who, despite the prevailing social incentives, refuse to stop believing in the mission.
If you want to work with me toward this goal, please send me a message. You can do so through a private message here, on Facebook or by leaving a comment below stating your intentions. All questions are welcome, and I will respond to as many as I can.
Godspeed.