While I liked Valentine’s recent post on kensho and its follow-ups a lot, one thing that I was annoyed by were the comments that the whole thing can’t be explained from a reductionist, third-person perspective. I agree that such an explanation can’t produce the necessary mental changes that the explanation is talking about. But it seemed wrong to me to claim that all of this would be somehow intrinsically mysterious and impossible to explain on such a level that would give people at least an intellectual understanding of what Looking and enlightenment and all that are.
Speaking as someone who's more or less avoided participating in the kensho discussion (and subsequent related discussions) until now, I think the quoted passage pretty much nails the biggest reservation I had with respect to the topic: the language used in those threads tended to switch back and forth between factual and metaphorical with very little indication as to which mode was being used at any particular moment, to the point where I really wanted to just say, "Okay, I sort of see what you're gesturing at and I'd love to discuss this with you in good faith, but before we get started on that, c...
I am really happy that this post was written, and mildly annoyed by the same things you're annoyed by.
To explain rather than excuse, there's a good reason that meditation teachers historically avoid giving clear answers like this. That's because their goal is not to help you intellectually understand meditation, but rather to help you do meditation.
It's very easy to mentally slip from "I intellectually understand what sort of thing this is" to "I understand the thing itself", and so meditation teachers hit this problem with a hammer by just refusing to explain it, so you're forced to try it instead. This problem is what the "get out of the car" section is talking about.
I have some worry that this post will make it easier for people to make errors like:
"I'm angry, because X is a jerk. Aha, I should try the thing Kaj was talking about, and notice that feeling angry is not helping me with my goal of utterly destroying X."
(This is exaggerated, but mistakes of this shape are really, really easy to make.)
I think it's definitely worth the cost, but it is a cost.
In particular, I would also add this warning: it's (mildly) dangerous to try to convince yourself of this no-self stuff too deeply on a purely intellectual level.
There was one point where I had read intellectual descriptions of the no-self thing, but hadn't had the experience of it. But I figured that maybe if I really thought it through and used a lot of compelling arguments, I could convince myself of it - after all, the intellectual argument seemed reasonable, but I clearly wasn't believing it on an emotional level, so maybe if I tried really hard to make the intellectual argument sink in?
This does not work. (At least, it didn't work for me, and I doubt it works for the average person.) The "no-self" thing was still getting interpreted in terms of my existing ontology, rather than the ontology updating. What I ended up with was some kind of a notion, temporarily and imperfectly believed on an emotional level, that every second of existence involved me dying and a new entity being created, and that every consciousness-moment would be my last.
That was not a healthy state of mind to be in; fortunately, my normal thinking patterns pretty quickly overrod...
As far as I can tell, this post successfully communicates a cluster of claims relating to "Looking, insight meditation, and enlightenment". It's written in a quite readable style that uses a minimum of metaphorical language or Buddhist jargon. That being said, likely due to its focus as exposition and not persuasion, it contains and relies on several claims that are not supported in the text, such as:
I think that all of these are worth doubting without further evidence, and I think that some of them are in fact wrong.
If this post were coupled with others that s
...I like this. The terminology I was exposed to for what you're calling cognitive fusion is being "subject to" something (I think it comes from Kegan but I learned it from Pete Michaud), and defusion is taking the thing "as object." (Actually these might not quite line up; if someone who's familiar with both terms can explain any possible differences to me I'd appreciate it.) And the practice I've been using for getting experience with this is circling.
Example: I spent most of the last year being subject to aliefs along the lines of "if X happens then that means I'm bad, which means that nobody will ever love me," which constantly surfaced in most of the circles I was in. The point of working with this alief in a circle was 1) to get exposed to situations that might trigger the alief, 2) to notice when other people started being confused about what I was saying because it no longer made sense to them, and 3) possibly to get actual experiences that contradict the alief (people still loving me even though X had happened). I was gradually able to take this alief as object but it took awhile; it had a very, very strong grip on me. T...
Reading this comment made me feel really happy for you.
From what you've been writing here and on Facebook, I feel like I can relate to a lot of the stuff you've been going through and fixing. I'm glad that you're getting through it.
Thanks. I've really appreciated your writing about what you've gone through as well, especially the core transformation stuff and the self-concept stuff above.
I like this. I largely agree.
I'd like to pinpoint a few differences I notice. I hope the collective here takes this as me coming from a spirit of "Here's the delta I see" rather than "I disagree and here's why." By and large I really like the clarity Kaj has brought to this.
First, a meta thing:
While I liked Valentine’s recent post on kensho and its follow-ups a lot, one thing that I was annoyed by were the comments that the whole thing can’t be explained from a reductionist, third-person perspective.
I didn't mean to convey that it can't be explained this way. I now think I was combining a few different things in a way that accidentally made it hard to understand:
On the inside, before you Look, the thing you’re about to Look at doesn’t look on the inside like “high-level cognitive content”. It looks like how things are. This ends up with me saying things that sound kind of crazy or nonsensical, but to me are obvious once I Look at them. (E.g., there are no objects. We create objects in order to think. Because language is suffused with object-ness, though, I don’t know of any coherent way of talking about this.)
This sounds very familiar. To quote from How An Algorithm Feels From Inside:
...Because we don't instinctively see our intuitions as "intuitions", we just see them as the world. When you look at a green cup, you don't think of yourself as seeing a picture reconstructed in your visual cortex—although that is what you are seeing—you just see a green cup. You think, "Why, look, this cup is green," not, "The picture in my visual cortex of this cup is green."
And in the same way, when people argue over whether the falling tree makes a sound, or whether Pluto is a planet, they don't see themselves as arguing over whether a categorization should be active in their neural networks. It seems like either the tre
I don't think Valentine did quite say that (his notion of) Looking is compatible with standard LW ontology. He speaks of "the restriction of Looking to that ontology" and indicates that from within the standard LW ontology other things will "remain largely inaccessible". He says that what Wei_Dai is saying "presupposes the standard LW ontology" and that this produces a "Get out of the car" problem. (While, yes, conceding that within that ontology "yes, it's compatible" is the best available answer.)
I agree that your post is an attempt to explain those things. (And my slightly snarky comments about what "the Enlightened" are and aren't willing to do was -- I should have been explicit about this, sorry -- not meant to apply to you: your clarity and explicitness on this stuff is extremely welcome.) But my impression is that, while Valentine has expressed approval of your post and said that he feels understood and so forth, he thinks there are important aspects of Looking/enlightenment/kensho/... that it doesn't (and maybe can't) cover.
Obvious disclaimer: I am not Valentine, and I may very well be misunderstanding him.
But my impression is that, while Valentine has expressed approval of your post and said that he feels understood and so forth, he thinks there are important aspects of Looking/enlightenment/kensho/... that it doesn't (and maybe can't) cover.
Doesn't: yes, for sure.
Can't: mmm, maybe? I expect that by the end of the sequence I'm writing, we'll return to Kaj's interpretation of Looking and basically just use it as a given — but it'll mean something slightly different. Right now, I expect that if we just assume Kaj's interpretation, we're going to encounter a logjam when we apply Looking to the favored LW ontology, and the social web will have a kind of allergic reaction to the logjam that prevents collective understanding of where it came from. Once we collectively understand the structure of that whole process, we can smash face-first into the logjam, notice the confusion that results, and then make some meaningful progress on making our epistemic methods up to tackling serious meta-ontological challenges. At that point I think it'll be just fine to say "Yep, we can think of Looking as compatible with the standard LW ontology." Just not before.
Quote from Richard Feynman explaining why there are no objects here.
I've begun a STEM-compatible attempt to explain a "no objectively-given objects" ontology in "Boundaries, objects, and connections." That's supposed to be the introduction to a book chapter that is extensively drafted but not yet polished enough to publish.
Really glad you are working on this also!
Alright, but, it is actually true that some flavors of arguments are acceptable (i.e. serve as evidence for truth) whereas other flavors of arguments are not acceptable (i.e. don't serve as evidence for truth). A lot of rationalist wisdom revolves precisely around distinguishing one from the other. Your comment sounds like someone who is comparing science and religion and saying that, both are just "patterns in a social web" that deem different sort of arguments as acceptable. However, they are not really symmetric. One of them is more correct than the other. So, saying that Looking cannot be explained by the sort of arguments that rationalists tend to accept does not strike me as a point in favor of Looking as a useful concept? I might be misunderstanding your intent.
My impression from the "phone" allegory etc. was that Looking is just supposed to be such a difficult concept that most people have almost no tools in their epistemic arsenal to understand it. This is very different from saying that people already know in their hearts what Looking is but don't want to acknowledge it because it would disrupt some self-deception.
People don't need to already know it in order for this dynamic to play out. All that's required is that the person have some kind of idea of what type of impact it'll have on their mental architecture — and that "some kind of idea" needn't be accurate.
This gets badly exacerbated if the concept is hard to understand. See e.g. "consciousness collapses quantum uncertainty" type beliefs. This does a reasonably good job of immunizing a mind against more materialist orientations to quantum phenomena.
But to illustrate in a little more detail how this might make Looking more difficult to understand, here's a slightly fictionalized exchange I've had with many, many people:
For example, if I prove a mathematical theorem than I trust it more than just having an intuition that the theorem is true. Similarly, if I use physics to compute something about a physical phenomenon, I trust it more than just having an intuition about the physical phenomenon.
I think the situation is much more complicated than this, at least for experts. Cf. Terence Tao's description of the pre-rigorous, rigorous, and post-rigorous stages of mathematical development. Mathematical papers often have incorrect proofs of correct statements (and the proofs are often fixable), because mathematicians' intuitions about mathematics are so well-developed that they lead them to correct conjectures even when attempts to write down proofs go awry because in a long proof there are many opportunities to make mistakes. My experience has definitely been that the longer a proof / computation gets the more I trust my intuitions if they happen to disagree. (But of course I trained my intuitions on many previous proofs / computations.)
For most questions you can't really compute the answer. You need to use some combination of intuition and explicit reasoning. However, this combination i...
With explicit intellectual reasoning, there's a chance for error correction. If someone's initial reasoning is wrong, others can point it out or they can eventually realize it on their own with further reasoning, and it seems possible to make progress towards the truth over time this way. (See science, math, and philosophy.) I'm worried that if Looking is wrong on a some question and makes me unjustifiably certain about it as well as discount explicit reasoning about that question, I won't be able to back out of that epistemic state.
I'm also worried that LW as a whole will get into such a state and not be able to back out of it, which makes me want to also discourage other people from trying Looking without first having an explicit understanding of its epistemic nature. I want to have answers to questions like:
I don’t know that I was proposing an epistemic norm.
In that case there was a misunderstanding somewhere. Here's my understanding/summary of our course of conversation: I said that explicit reasoning is useful for error correction. You said we can apply explicit reasoning to the data generated by Looking, and also check predictions for error correction. I said people who talk about Looking don't tend to talk in terms of data, hypothesis and prediction. You said they may not want to use that frame. I asked what I should ask about instead (meaning how else can I try to encourage error correction, since that was the reason for wanting to ask about data and prediction in the first place). You said "Meet him in person and ask him to show you the way in which everyone has bodhicitta." I interpreted that as a proposed alternative (or addition) to the norm of asking for data and predictions when someone proposes a new idea.
I guess the misunderstanding happened when I asked you "what should I do instead?" and you interpreted that as asking how can I understand Looking and bodhicitta, but what I actually meant was how can I encourage error correction in case Val was wro...
When a person becomes capable of observing in sufficient detail the mental process by which this sense of an I is constructed, the delusion of its independent existence is broken. Afterwards, while the mind will continue to use the concept “I” as an organizing principle, it becomes correctly experienced as a theoretical fiction rather than something that could be harmed or helped by the experience of “bad” or “good” emotions. As a result, desire and aversion towards having specific states of mind (and thus suffering) cease. We cease to flinch away from pain, seeing that we do not need to avoid them in order to protect the “I”.
As a "third party", this explanation makes little sense to me. Suppose it's true that "our minds are composed of a large number of subagents, which share information by sending various percepts into consciousness" and I realize this through meditation, it seems that "I" remain something real (namely a group of subagents) and can still be potentially harmed or helped. Why would a group be less capable of being harmed than a monolithic agent? I'm not seeing the logic here.
Also, I'm surprised that you give no mention to transient ...
Adding to my other comment...
I'm skeptical about the value of most neurophysiological explanations in general: I think that in many cases, they just create an illusion of understanding by throwing in neurological terms that give an appearance of detail without actually contributing conceptual gears. If I say "learning to navigate a city causes structural changes in the hippocampus", that doesn't really tell most people anything that they could use, but does give them a feeling that they now understand this better.
Similarly, I could have quoted from the Dietrich paper
the prefrontal cortex enables the top layers of consciousness by contributing the highest-order cognitive functions to the conscious experience ... evidence suggests that initial and much ensuing information processing on perception, attention, or memory occurs in other brain areas before further integration in the frontal lobes ... meditation results in transient hypofrontality with the notable exception of the attentional network in the prefrontal cortex
and added something like "and thus, Looking is about learning to selectively downregulate the activity of the prefrontal cortex - which carrie...
Suppose it's true that "our minds are composed of a large number of subagents, which share information by sending various percepts into consciousness" and I realize this through meditation, it seems that "I" remain something real (namely a group of subagents) and can still be potentially harmed or helped. Why would a group be less capable of being harmed than a monolithic agent? I'm not seeing the logic here.
Right, so I'm using a very specific sense of "harmed" here.
The claim is not that the subagents couldn't be harmed or helped in the sense of e.g. brain damage damaging their function, things in the external world happening more or less according to their values, etc. They obviously can, and there's nothing delusional about that.
The "harm" that I'm referring to is the alief that there's something intrinsically bad about experiencing emotions with negative valence. For instance, I might experience stress about going to the dentist, and this is not because I would expect the dentist to do the "objective" kind of damage which you're talking about - obviously I expect the dentist to benefit me,...
Did that make any sense?
Yes, that does make a lot more sense.
Similarly, it’s been a while since I last read it, but I believe that the Dietrich paper is explaining on a neurophysiological level basically the same process that this post gave a cognitive explanation of.
I think Dietrich's explanation is essentially non-cognitive, i.e., the denial of self is caused by something like a hardware glitch or switch that is triggered by meditation, rather than a sequence of cognitive steps. (Similar things can happen during endurance running, hypnosis, and drug-induced states, which are more obviously non-cognitive.) Here's the relevant part of the paper:
...meditation entails sustained concentration and heightened awareness by focusing attention on a mantra, breathing rhythm, or a number of other internal or external events [...] Humans appear to have a great deal of control over what they attend to (Atkinson & Shiffrin, 1968), and in meditation, attentional resources are used to actively amplify a particular event such as a mantra until it becomes the exclusive content in the working memory buffer. This intentional, concentrated effort selectively disengages all other cognitive ca
Ah, right, now I think I understand what you were saying.
I think the thing here is that, like a lot of old research on the topic, Dietrich does not do a very precise job of exactly what kind of meditation he's talking about: possibly because he doesn't (or at least didn't at the time of writing this) realize that meditation actually covers a wide variety of different practices.
In particular, the thing that he's talking about sounds kind of like he's describing something like high-level samatha jhanas: probably something like the seventh or eighth jhana (note: links within that wiki seem to be broken, people curious about the earlier jhanas may want to use the book's pdf instead).
These are indeed mental states where a meditator may end up in, if they manage to concentrate really really intensely on just one thing, to the exclusion of anything else. And from those descriptions, it really does sound like you reach them by successively turning off brain functions until you get a really weird mental state.
However, a lot of traditions - including the author of the linked wiki/book - emphasize that getting into samatha jhana states is not enlightenment. Some ...
Wow, thanks for this incredibly detailed comment. It clarified something for me, especially this:
It was something like... when I struggle against pain, there's an element of identifying (fusing together) with the subprocess that is fighting against the pain, rather than with the subprocess that's producing the pain.
It feels to me like I've acquired some of the skill of not fighting against pain, but I don't think I did it by doing anything to my sense of self. It's more like I just repeatedly noticed that experiencing pain kept not killing me.
Meta note: the fact that pasting text into the comment box results in it being bold is a bug.
Let's not start using bold as a convention for indicating that text is a quote. The actual quote syntax (with greater than sign) or italics look much better. Don't they?
The most significant frustration with trying to speak effectively about this topic is that a significant fraction of what we are engaging with when we do is the mind's attempts to immunize itself from needing to get out of the car by recontextualizing the instructions as something referring to things within the car. This is especially egregious with extremely intelligent folks who can get very creative with it.
"But what about X? I found X very useful!"
Yes, perceived usefulness is one of the best ways it can convince you to watch TED tal-I mean understand contemplative practices.
I still broadly agree with everything that I said in this post. I do feel that it is a little imprecise, in that I now have much more detailed and gears-y models for many of its claims. However, elaborating on those would require an entirely new post (one which I currently working on) with a sequence's worth of prerequisites. So if I were to edit this post, I would probably mostly leave it as it is, but include a pointer to the new post once it's finished.
In terms of this post being included in a book, it is worth noting that the post situates itself in the context of Valentine's Kensho post, which has not been nominated for the review and thus wouldn't be included in the book. So if this post were to be included, I should probably edit this so as to not require reading Kensho.
“Looking”, as you explain it here, seems to be a way to perceive / examine / understand / gain insight into / etc. your own thought processes. Fair enough.
However:
A dear friend of mine was with me when my kensho struck, and we were able to Look at each other.
Second, one clear thing I noticed when I first intentionally Looked is that everyone has bodhicitta.
These usage examples (all from one person—so it’s not simply a matter of different people using the term differently) do not seem to square with what you describe “Looking” to be.
Clarify, please?
I'm still not 100% sure I understand Val's definition of Looking, so I'm not quite willing to commit to the claim that it's the same as Kaj's definition. But I do think it's not that hard to square Kaj's definition with those quotes, so I'll try to do that.
Kaj's definition is:
being able to develop the necessary mental sharpness to notice slightly lower-level processing stages in your cognitive processes, and study the raw concepts which then get turned into higher-level cognitive content, rather than only seeing the high-level cognitive content.
Everything you experience, no matter the object, is experienced via your own cognitive processes. When you're doing math, or talking to a friend, or examining the world, that is an experience you are having, which is being filtered by your cognitive processes, and therefore to which the structure of your mind is relevant.
As Kaj describes, the part of your thought processes you normally have conscious access to are a tiny fragment of what is actually happening. When you practice the skill of making more of it conscious and making finer and finer discriminations in mental experience, you find t...
Yeah, this is basically how I squared it with Val's version, too. A few other examples:
I see the main contribution of this post as being a personal, phenomenological account of one of the fundamental skills of rationality - this post contains incredibly clear examples and explanations of a very subtle phenomenon. It also helped me (and I believe many others) understand a discussion I'd been confused about. For these reasons, I've curated it.
The main reason I wouldn't want to curate this post is due to it's length, and the fact that I found the second half less clear than the first. But the post is surprisingly readable all-round, so this wasn't a big factor in my decision.
Cross-posting my comment from another thread here:
--
One way of [explaining what the Buddhist conception of no-self means], which I think should be mostly accurate, is that the state that is being a booed is a belief in the homunculus fallacy.
Dennett, Kurzban, and others have pointed out that there are facts about the way in which the mind and consciousness function which feel deeply counter-intuitive, and that even neuroscientists and psychologists who in principle know that the brain is just a distributed system of separate modules, still often seem to operate under an intuition that there is a single "central" self (as seen from some of the theories that they propose).
I'm not sure whether that's the source of the intuition, but it also seems related that humans seem to have a core system for reasoning about agency which takes as an axiom the assumption that agents exhibit independent, goal-directed motion (as opposed to objects, which only act when acted upon). Which makes sense if you're just reasoning about e.g. social dynamics, but gets you into trouble if you try to understand the functioning of the brain and feel intuitively convinced that there has...
This is excellent, thank you for writing it.
I'm not as advanced as you, but I've gotten many of the earlier benefits you describe and think you've described them well. That said, I have some confusion about how stuff like this paragraph works:
And because those emotions no longer felt aversive, I didn’t have a reason to invest in not feeling those things - unless I had some other reason than the intrinsic aversiveness of an emotion to do so.
What does it mean to have another reason beyond the intrinsic aversiveness of an emotion? Who's th...
These are good questions... unfortunately, in my current state of mind, I don't feel confident in my ability to answer them accurately.
Several of the paragraphs describing my experience, were written based off notes that I made while in that kind of state, as well as memories of the explanations that I thought up while in that state. But even while in that state, I recognized that there's probably a bit of a verbal overshadowing effect going on, with the verbal description mostly but not quite matching my actual experience of the state, with that not-quite-it version nevertheless becoming the main thing that I'd recall from the state when no longer in it.
So, while I remember enough of that state to say that my descriptions here are probably roughly right, the level of detail that your question is trying to tease out is too precise for me to produce a reliable answer, in my current mostly-normal-again state.
I'll see if I can give you a better answer the next time I end up in a state like that. :-)
I think this post basically succeeds at its goal (given the discussion in the comments), and feels like an important precursor to discussion of some of the directions the LW community has been moving in for the last several years. I think the connection to cognitive fusion was novel to me when I first read it, but immediately clicked in place.
Here's something puzzling me: in terms of abstract description, enlightenment sounds a lot like dissociation. Yet I'm under the impression that those who experience the former tend to find it Very Good, while those who experience the latter tend to find it Very Bad.
I'd like not to suffer for two reasons:
1. I'm compelled to avoid suffering, which is maladaptive; if I didn't care about suffering, I'd get more of the other things I want.
2. Suffering is bad; I'm interested in suffering less whether or not it changes my behavior.
I'm not really clear on what you mean when you say "suffering isn't aversive." (ETA: I meant "pain isn't aversive" or "pain doesn't cause suffering.") Intuitively, I'd expect it to mean that you fix both #1 and #2. Som...
I'm not sure if you've tried psychedelics. Psychedelics have very different effects on people, but I was very lucky; on me they produced exactly the effect you described - reducing my mental processes to far more granular levels. I did psychedelics enough that now this type of 'unfusing' process feels somewhere between 'default' to 'always present but sleeping' to me. I feel rendered mute when trying to talk about this, because this topic triggers a strong inability in myself to remain fused with the thoughts I am tr...
[Note: mostly just me trying to order my thoughts, kind of hoping someone can see and tell me where my confusion comes from]
So the key insight regarding suffering seems to be that pain is not equal to suffering. Instead there is a mental motion (flinching away from pain) that produces (or is equal to?) suffering. And whereas most people see pain as intrinsically bad, Looking allows you to differentiate between the pain and the flinching away, realizing that pain in and of itself is not bad. It also allows you to get rid of the flinching away, thus eliminat...
Although there may be different ideas about enlightenment within different lineages, what Kaj describes is pretty consistent with the way we think about enlightenment within Soto Zen. That is, enlightenment is just the state of always being awake to what's going on (Looking as Val put it), or as I would probably put it, to be able to hold as subject only intentionality and hold everything else as object. It doesn't give you special abilities or anything like that; it just means you notice what's happening.
That said, noticing what you're...
In the section On why enlightenment may not be very visible in one’s behavior which of the two things do you mean to argue?
Because I would buy the first claim but not the second. I expect that if someone in general is able to not flinch away from painful experiences, they're able to have better long-term relationships. I notice how people I talk to often flinch away from (a) silence ...
Prodigious improvement over other explanations I have seen! I have no inherent objection to identifying things as ineffable, but there are usually boundaries around the ineffability which can be identified. Some of them are very well understood.
For example, childbirth. There is no way to compress the experience of childbirth in such a way that someone who has not gone through it themselves can be said understand the experience: but we have doctors and midwives who specialize in managing it; books and classes about how to approach it and deal with it safely...
Newbies to meditation talking about enlightenment sounds about as dumb as science reporters talking about quantum mechanics. The whole discussion will improve if we taboo the word. Thinking that minor attainments are enlightenment has a several thousand year history at this point. The general advice given for attainments is give it 6 months before you go broadcasting it and preferably talk to a teacher who is farther along than you. For the rationality community I strongly encourage chatting with Michael Taft or Kenneth Folk, both of whom are available for...
This sounds like a criticism of me speculating about the nature of enlightenment. I acknowledge that my hypothesis is based on very early-stage data and might be wrong / is the weakest part of my article (and I flagged it as such). But I felt like some speculation was necessary, in order to address the evidence brought up in the earlier threads which suggested that this whole enlightenment thing is just wireheading with no real benefit. It would have felt logically rude to simply write an article about the benefits of insight without making at least some attempt to square my current understanding of its usefulness with the evidence that had previously been offered for it being just useless wireheading.
If you think that my speculation is just blatantly wrong, as you seem to be implying, then I would appreciate a summary of a position that's more correct while also engaging with those criticisms.
there are no summaries that I have encountered that I am truly happy with, and my guess based on past experience is that if I did, I would disagree with that assessment a year from now. Getting genre savvy in this way is apparently part of the reason teachers are mum on many aspects. My own motivation is based on an attempt to suss out upstream levers in a scope sensitive way, ie what are the modal properties of truth seeking processes. Attacking that one with an intent to dissolve misunderstandings eventually gets you out of the car. Or at least gets you a hand out the window.
Also, thanks for the useful thought: we have lots of thoughts about what counts as epistemic evidence. What counts as ontological evidence? Teleological evidence? Traditional answers are pretty low complexity: coherence, compressibility, reference class forecasting. Underspecified.
edit: I do recommend Michael Taft and Kenneth Folk's writings as well. As well as their teacher, Shinzen Young. Though he is more old school being from the previous generation and thus having fewer or incorrectly used shibboleths.
I'll also mention that the traditional answer is that people have to find teachers they reson...
including but not limited to books like The Mind Illuminated, Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, and The Seeing That Frees
What a trio of books! All three of those sit prominently on my bookshelf, and have had significant impacts for me at different times. I absolutely treasure The Seeing that Frees. I am so happy that Rob lived long enough to give birth to that book, and his many talks online - though of course would have loved to have seen his later teachings on Soulmaking in book form.
Excellent and well worked on, suggesting many different interesting ideas and research avenues.
You can’t defuse from the content of a belief, if your motivation for wanting to defuse from it is the belief itself.
I don't think this is true. You can use the desire to want to defuse from the belief to get yourself to a point where you are trying to defuse from the belief, then you just let the desire to defuse from the belief go (even if just temporarily) so that you can actually defuse.
I won't correct everything I find wrong, but I felt that the "Understanding Suffering" section was completely off. I will just mention one of the major points:
Remember, enlightenment means that you no longer experience emotional pain as aversive. In other words, you continue to have “negative” emotions like fear, anger, jealousy, and so on - you just don’t mind having them.
This is utterly wrong. Enlightenment in Buddhism means emotional pain cannot arise, period. In Buddhism, there are five "hindrances" or negative mental states: desire, aversion, co...
On a small point, maybe it would be helpful to use a more natural term than 'defusion', e.g. 'detachment' (if that expresses it clearly), or perhaps something like 'objectivity'.
As better to avoid the confusion of introducing a new technical term if something can be expressed just as well with a familiar one.
Kaj, where can I read more about the three marks of existence? Preferably something as detailed as possible while still being readable in no more than a full day.
I think that a succinct statement of enlightenment would be: one flavor.
You notice the oneness, the sameness, of all subjective experience, and cease flinching from certain ones and grasping at others.
Any thoughts
Based on how I experienced things when I had the experience that made enlightenment seem within reach, something like a lack of noticeable change is in fact exactly what I would expect from many people who become enlightened.
If this is the case, our experience becomes slightly surprising from an anthropics-ish point of view.
That is, if there are multiple ways to experience the world that are instrumentally the same (like suffering from pain or not), whichever one we happen to have is a random draw. It seems we could have evolved to have any of them with eq...
Epistemic status: pretty confident. Based on several years of meditation experience combined with various pieces of Buddhist theory as popularized in various sources, including but not limited to books like The Mind Illuminated, Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, and The Seeing That Frees; also discussions with other people who have practiced meditation, and scatterings of cognitive psychology papers that relate to the topic. The part that I’m the least confident of is the long-term nature of enlightenment; I’m speculating on what comes next based on what I’ve experienced, but have not actually had a full enlightenment. I also suspect that different kinds of traditions and practices may produce different kinds of enlightenment states.
While I liked Valentine’s recent post on kensho and its follow-ups a lot, one thing that I was annoyed by were the comments that the whole thing can’t be explained from a reductionist, third-person perspective. I agree that such an explanation can’t produce the necessary mental changes that the explanation is talking about. But it seemed wrong to me to claim that all of this would be somehow intrinsically mysterious and impossible to explain on such a level that would give people at least an intellectual understanding of what Looking and enlightenment and all that are. Especially not after I spoke to Val and realized that hey, I actually do know how to Look, and that thing he’s calling kensho, that’s happened to me too.
(Note however that kensho is a Zen term and I'm unfamiliar with Zen; I don't want to use a term which might imply that I was going with whatever theoretical assumptions Zen might have, so I will just talk about “my experience” when it comes up.)
So here is my attempt to give an explanation. I don’t know if I’ve succeeded, but here goes anyway.
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One of my key concepts is going to be cognitive fusion.
Cognitive fusion is a term from Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT), which refers to a person “fusing together” with the content of a thought or emotion, so that the content is experienced as an objective fact about the world rather than as a mental construct. The most obvious example of this might be if you get really upset with someone else and become convinced that something was all their fault (even if you had actually done something blameworthy too).
In this example, your anger isn’t letting you see clearly, and you can’t step back from your anger to question it, because you have become “fused together” with it and experience everything in terms of the anger’s internal logic.
Another emotional example might be feelings of shame, where it’s easy to experience yourself as a horrible person and feel that this is the literal truth, rather than being just an emotional interpretation.
Cognitive fusion isn’t necessarily a bad thing. If you suddenly notice a car driving towards you at a high speed, you don’t want to get stuck pondering about how the feeling of danger is actually a mental construct produced by your brain. You want to get out of the way as fast as possible, with minimal mental clutter interfering with your actions. Likewise, if you are doing programming or math, you want to become at least partially fused together with your understanding of the domain, taking its axioms as objective facts so that you can focus on figuring out how to work with those axioms and get your desired results.
On the other hand, even when doing math, it can sometimes be useful to question the axioms you’re using. In programming, taking the guarantees of your abstractions as literal axioms can also lead to trouble. And while it is useful to perceive something as objectively life-threatening and out to get you, that perception is going to get you in a lot of trouble if it’s actually false. Such as if you get into a fight with your romantic partner and assume that they actively want to hurt you, when they’re just feeling hurt over something that you said.
Cognitive fusion trades flexibility for focus. You will be strongly driven and capable of focusing on just the thing that’s your in mind, at the cost of being less likely to notice when that thing is actually wrong.
Some simple defusion techniques suggested by ACT include things like noticing when you’re thinking something bad about yourself, and prefacing it with “I’m having the thought that”. So if you find yourself thinking “I am a terrible person”, you can change that into “I’m having the thought that I am a terrible person”. Or you can repeat the word “terrible” a hundred times, until it stops having any meaning. Or you can see if you can manipulate the way that the thought sounds like in your head, such as turning it into a comical whine that sounds like it’s from a cartoon, until you can no longer take it seriously. (Eliezer’s cognitive trope therapy should also be considered as a cognitive defusion technique.) In one way or the other, all of these highlight the fact that the thought or emotion is just a mental construct, making it easier to question its truthfulness.
However, managing to defuse from a thought that is actively bothering you, is a relatively superficial level of defusion. We must go deeper.
Meditation as cognitive defusion practice
While there are many different forms of meditation, many of them could be reasonably characterized as practicing the skill of intentional cognitive defusion.
One of the most basic forms of meditation is to just concentrate on your breath - or on any other focus that you have happened to choose. Soon, a distraction will come up in your mind - something that says that there’s a more important thing to do, or that you are bored, or that this isn’t leading anywhere.
If you start engaging with the content of that distraction, you’re already failing to keep your focus. That is, if a thought comes to you saying that there’s a more important thing to do, and you start arguing with yourself and trying to make a logical case for why meditation is actually the most important thing, then you’ve already been distracted from whatever it was that you were supposed to be focusing on. On some level, you have bought into the internal logic of the distraction, and into the belief that the argument must be beaten on its own terms.
What you must do instead, is to disregard the content of the distraction. Instead of becoming fused with its contents, defuse and redirect your attention back towards your focus. Whenever a new distraction rises, do this again.
As your skill improves and your attention becomes more reliably anchored on the focus, you can start learning additional skills. If you are doing something like the meditation program outlined in e.g. The Mind Illuminated, one of the next steps is to develop an awareness of distractions that are just on the edge of your consciousness, which are not yet distracting you but are going to steal your attention any moment now. By cultivating a sensitivity to those subtle movements of your mind, you are increasing your ability to notice lower-level details of what’s going on in your consciousness, in a way which helps with cognitive defusion by making you more aware of the ways in which your experience is constructed.
As an example of such increased sensitivity, some time back I was doing concentration meditation, using an app which plays the sound of something hitting a woodblock, 50 times per minute. As I was concentrating on listening to the sound, I noticed that what had originally been just one thing in my experience - a discrete sound event - was actually composed of many smaller parts. The beginning and end of the sound were different, so there were actually two sound sensations; and there was a subtle visualization of something hitting something else; and a sense of motion accompanying that visualization. I had not previously even been fully aware that my mind was automatically creating a mental image of what it thought that the sound represented.
Continuing to observe those different components, I became more aware of the fact that my visualization of the sound changed over time and between meditation sessions, in a rather arbitrary way. Sometimes my mind conjured up a vision of a hammer hitting a rock in a dwarven mine; sometimes it was two wooden sticks hitting each other; sometimes it was drops of water falling on the screen of my phone.
By itself, this would mostly just be a curiosity. However, developing the kind of mental precision that actually lets you separate your experience into these kinds of small subcomponents, seems like a prerequisite for slicing your various mental outputs in a way which lets you see what they’re made of.
Last summer, I noticed myself having the thought that I couldn’t be happy, which made me feel bad. And then I noticed that associated with that thought, was a mental image of what a happy person was like - that image was of a young, cheerful, outgoing and extraverted girl.
In other words, my prototypical concept of a happy person included not just happiness, but extraversion and high energy as well. And so my mind was comparing my self-concepts with this concept of happiness, noticing that I wasn’t that kind of a person, and so concluding that I couldn’t be happy. Realizing that my concept of a “happy person” was uselessly narrow allowed me to fix the problem.
But if we break down what happened with the dysfunctional “happiness concept” into slightly smaller steps, something like this seems to have happened:
1) me feeling unhappy -> 2) mental image of a happy person -> 3) thought that I can’t be happy
Notice that this has a similarity with the way my mind automatically produced a visualization for the woodblock sound:
1) sensation of the woodblock sound -> 2) mental image of two woodblocks hitting each other -> 3) thought of “oh, it’s two woodblocks hitting each other”
In both cases, some stimulus seemed to have produced a subtle mental image as a preliminary interpretation of what the stimulus meant, which then translated into a higher-level abstract concept. In both cases, something was off about the middle step. In the case of the happiness example, I had a too narrow view of what happy people are like. With the sound, the problem was that my mind was making up various interpretations of what was making the sound, despite having too little data to actually determine what it was.
Having developed the ability to notice those earlier steps in my mental processes, allowed me to notice a potential problem, as opposed to only being aware of the final output of the process.
I believe that this kind of thing is what Valentine means when he talks about Looking: being able to develop the necessary mental sharpness to notice slightly lower-level processing stages in your cognitive processes, and study the raw concepts which then get turned into higher-level cognitive content, rather than only seeing the high-level cognitive content.
This seems like a core rationality skill, since seeing slightly earlier stages of your cognitive process helps question its validity, which is to say it makes it easier for you to engage in cognitive defusion when desired. (If the process seems valid, you can still choose to fuse with it if that provides a benefit.) And being able to apply selective cognitive defusion means being able to not believe everything that you think, which is an essential requirement for things like actually changing your mind.
Understanding suffering
Understanding suffering is a special case of Looking, but a sufficiently important one that it deserves to be briefly discussed in some detail.
Usually, most of us are - on some implicit level - operating off a belief that we need to experience pleasant feelings and need to avoid experiencing unpleasant feelings. In a sense, thinking about getting into an unpleasant or painful situation may feel almost like death: if we think that the experience would be unpleasant enough, then no matter how brief it might be, we might do almost anything to avoid ending up there.
There’s a sense in which this is absurd. After all, a moment of discomfort is just that - a moment of discomfort. By itself, it won’t do us any lasting damage, and trying to avoid can produce worse results even on its own terms.
For instance, consider the person who keeps putting off making a doctor’s appointment because they suspect that there’s something wrong with them. If there really is something seriously wrong, then the best thing would be to get a diagnosis as fast as possible. And even if it is something harmless, it would still be better to find out about that earlier rather than later, so as to stop feeling the nervous about it. Not going to the doctor, and continuing to feel nervous about it, is about the worst possible outcome - even if you cared about avoiding discomfort.
On a conscious level, we realize that this kind of behavior is absurd. Then we go on doing it.
You might say that it’s because there’s a part of us that remains cognitively fused with the alief that all painful experiences need to be avoided, and that there’s something vaguely death-like about them.
Typically, if we are only talking about relatively mild discomfort, then that alief doesn’t manifest itself very strongly. We are okay with the thought of facing mild discomfort. But just as it’s easy to remain calm and defused from feelings of anger as long as there isn’t anything strongly upsetting going on, on some level we will tend to experience cognitive fusion with the “pain is death” alief more and more strongly the worse we expect the pain to be.
The general way by which incorrect aliefs are changed is by giving the part of your brain holding them, experiences about what the world is really like. If you have a dog phobia, you might do desensitization therapy, gradually exposing yourself to dogs in controlled circumstances. Eventually, seeing that you have encountered dogs many times and that it’s safe, your brain updates and ceases to have the phobia.
Similarly, if you Look at the process of yourself flinching away from thoughts of painful experiences, you will come to directly experience the fact that it’s the flinching away from them that actually produces suffering, and that the thoughts would be harmless by themselves.
The dog doesn’t hurt you: it’s your own fear that hurts you. Similarly, pain isn’t bad by itself, but turns into suffering when we come to believe that we need to avoid it. Seeing this, the parts of your mind that have been doing the flinching away, will gradually start updating towards not habitually flinching away.
When I say that it is the automatic flinching away that actually produces suffering, I don’t mean that just in the sense of “putting off painful experiences causes us to experience more pain in the long run”. I mean that the processes involved with the flinching away are literally what turns pain into suffering: if you can get the flinching away to stop, pain (whether physical or emotional) will still be present as an attention signal that flags important things into your awareness. But neither the experience of pain, nor the thought of experiencing pain in the future, will be experienced as aversive anymore. The alief / belief of “pain is death” will not be active.
Now, Looking at your process-of-flinching-away in order to stop flinching away, is a long and slow process. We can again compare it with getting desensitized to a phobia: even after you have learned to be okay with a mild phobia trigger (say, a toy dog in the same room with you), you will continue to be freaked out by worse versions of the trigger (such as a real dog). It’s very possible to have setbacks if a dog attacks you or if your life just generally gets more stressful, and sometimes you might show up at a session and get freaked out by things you thought you were already desensitized to. Learning to Look at suffering in order to reduce it is similar.
So what’s all this “look up” and “get out of the car” stuff?
Here’s an analogy.
Suppose that one day, you happen to run into a complete stranger. You don’t think very much about needing to impress them, and as a result, you come off as relaxed and charming.
The next day, you’re going on a date with someone you’re really strongly attracted to. You feel that it’s really really important for you to make a good impression, and because you keep obsessing about this thought, you can’t relax, act normal, and actually make a good impression.
Suppose that you remember all that stuff about cognitive fusion. You might (correctly) think that if you managed to defuse from the thought of this being an important encounter, then all of this would be less stressful and you might actually make a good impression.
But this brings up a particular difficulty: it can be relatively easy to defuse from a thought that you on some level believe is, or at least may be, false. But it’s a lot harder to defuse from a thought which you believe on a deep level to actually be true, but which it’s just counterproductive to think about.
After all, if you really are strongly interested in this person, but might not have an opportunity to meet with them again if you make a bad impression... then it is important for you to make a good impression on them now. Defusing from the thought of this being important, would mean that you believed less in this being important, meaning that you might do something that actually left a bad impression on them!
You can’t defuse from the content of a belief, if your motivation for wanting to defuse from it is the belief itself. In trying to reject the belief that making a good impression is important, and trying to do this with the motive of making a good impression, you just reinforce the belief that this is important. If you want to actually defuse from the belief, your motive for doing so has to come from somewhere else than the belief itself.
The general form of this thing is what makes big green bats complain that you’re still not getting out of the car. Or people who are aware of their cell phones, that you’re still not looking up. You are fused with some belief or conceptual system while trying to use that very same belief or conceptual system to defuse yourself from it, which keeps you trapped in it. Instead, you could just stop using it, and then you’d be free.
Of course, this is easier said than done. Even if you know that this is what you’re doing, knowing it isn’t enough to stop doing it. Essentially, you have to somehow distract yourself from the belief you’re caught up with… but if your belief is that this thing is really important, then before you could distract yourself from it, you’d need to distract yourself from it, so as to stop worrying about the potential consequences of having distracted yourself from it.
Yeah.
All of this particularly applies for trying to overcome suffering. Because remember, suffering is caused by a belief that pain is intrinsically bad. That belief is what causes you to try to flinch away from pain in a way which, by itself, creates the suffering.
So if you are experiencing some really powerful emotion that’s causing you a lot of suffering, making you want to defuse from it so that you could stop feeling those bad things?
Well, then you are trying to be okay with feeling bad things, so that you could stop feeling bad things. Again, your motive for wanting to defuse from a belief, is digging you deeper into the belief.
On the surface, this would seem to suggest that you can only use Looking to stop suffering in cases of relatively mild pain, where you don’t really even care all that much about whether you’re in pain or not. Looking would only help you feel better in the cases when you’d need it the least anyway.
And to be honest, a lot of the time it does feel that way.
Fortunately, there is a solution.
The three marks
I previously mentioned that there’s something absurd about the belief that pain would need to be avoided: after all, if something really painful happens, then that won’t kill us: usually it only means that, well, something really painful has happened. We might be left traumatized, but that trauma is by itself also just more pain.
It’s as if a deep part of our minds is deluded about just how world-ending the pain is in the first place.
Buddhist theory states that that delusion arises from deep parts of our minds being wrong about some fundamental aspects of existence, traditionally called the three marks: impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and no-self. If we can make ourselves curious about the true nature of existence, and Look deeply enough into just how our mind works, we can eventually witness things about how our mind works which contradict those delusions.
Do that often and deep enough, and the delusions shatter.
This allows us to actually overcome suffering, because in order to explore the nature of the self, we do not need to always be motivated by a desire to make the suffering stop. Rather, we can be motivated by things like curiosity or a desire to help other people, and explore the workings of our mind during times when we are not in terrible pain.
There will be a time when this happens on a sufficiently deep level that a person becomes convinced of full enlightenment being possible. Typically, the first time will be enough to let them get a taste of what it’s like to live without delusions; but their insights are not yet deep enough to cause a permanent change, and the delusions will soon regenerate themselves.
Still, the delusions will not regenerate entirely: something will have shifted permanently, in a way that makes it easier to make further progress on dissolving them.
While it is impossible to use words to convey the experience of getting insight into the three marks of existence, it is possible to offer a third-person perspective on what exactly it is that our minds are mistaken about. Of the three marks, no-self may be the easiest to explain in these terms.
In the book The Mind Illuminated, the Buddhist model of psychology is described as one where our minds are composed of a large number of subagents, which share information by sending various percepts into consciousness. There's one particular subagent, the 'narrating mind' which takes these percepts and binds them together by generating a story of there existing one single agent, an I, to which everything happens. The fundamental delusion is when this fictional construct of an I is mistaken for an actually-existing entity, which needs to be protected by acquiring percepts with a positive emotional tone and avoiding percepts with a negative one.
When a person becomes capable of observing in sufficient detail the mental process by which this sense of an I is constructed, the delusion of its independent existence is broken. Afterwards, while the mind will continue to use the concept "I" as an organizing principle, it becomes correctly experienced as a theoretical fiction rather than something that could be harmed or helped by the experience of “bad” or “good” emotions. As a result, desire and aversion towards having specific states of mind (and thus suffering) cease. We cease to flinch away from pain, seeing that we do not need to avoid them in order to protect the “I”.
On why enlightenment may not be very visible in one’s behavior
In the comments of the kensho post, cousin_it mentioned having read several reports of people claiming enlightenment… yet not seeming to really demonstrate it by having better emotional skills. A paper also reported on various people having achieved some kinds of advanced meditative states… but still not being all that different when viewed from the outside:
Based on how I experienced things when I had the experience that made enlightenment seem within reach, something like a lack of noticeable change is in fact exactly what I would expect from many people who become enlightened.
Remember, enlightenment means that you no longer experience emotional pain as aversive. In other words, you continue to have “negative” emotions like fear, anger, jealousy, and so on - you just don’t mind having them.
This does end up changing some of your emotional landscape. My experience was that since feeling crappy felt like an okay thing to happen, the thought of having negative experiences in the future no longer stressed me out. This brought with it a sense of calm, since I knew that I was in some sense "invulnerable" to anything that might happen. But the state of calmness was more of a result of everything being okay - a consequence of there no longer being anything that would be a genuine threat - rather than a permanent emotional state.
That emotion of calm could still be momentarily replaced by other emotional states as normal, it was just that one particular source of negative feelings (the fear of future negative feelings) was eliminated. I would still feel sadness about the things I normally feel sad about, anger about the things I normally feel angry about, and so on. And because those emotions no longer felt aversive, I didn’t have a reason to invest in not feeling those things - unless I had some other reason than the intrinsic aversiveness of an emotion to do so.
My model here is that enlightenment doesn’t automatically make you a good person, nor particularly emotionally balanced, or anything like that. If you were a jealous wreck before, but felt like it was totally justified and right for you to behave jealously… then seeing through the illusion of the self isn’t going to clear those cognitive structures from your head. It can help you defuse from them enough to see that your justifications are essentially arbitrary - but at the same time, you may also have defused from any cognitive structures that say that there’s something bad about having essentially arbitrary justifications.
To put it differently: one way of describing my experience was that it felt like an extreme moment of cognitive defusion, where I defused from my entire motivational system, and could just watch its operation from the outside.
But the thing is, if you truly step outside your entire motivational system, then that leaves the part that just stepped out with no motivational system, leaving the existing one operating as normal.
Suppose that you are thinking something like, “aha! stepping outside my whole motivational system means that I’m finally free to do thing X, which stupid internal conflicts have been blocking me from doing so far!”
But if you are thinking that, then you are still working inside a motivational system where it’s important to achieve X. (Still not stepping out of the car.) If you have truly defused from your motivational system, then you have no particular desire to change the things in your mind that influence whether you are going to achieve X or not.
Even if you manage to step outside the system, the system is still going to keep doing various things - like taking your body to the store to get food - that it has learned to do: being defused from a motivation doesn’t mean that the motivation would necessarily disappear or stop influencing your behavior. It just means that you can examine its validity as it goes on.
And if you see yourself going to the store to get some food, well, why not go along with that? After all, to stop acting as you always have, would require some special motivation to do so. All of your motivations exist within the system. If you previously had a motivation to change something about your own behavior, but also had underlying psychological reasons why you hadn’t changed your behavior yet, then enlightenment may leave that balance of competing motivations basically unaltered. You may still have mental processes struggling against each other and you may experience internal conflict as normal: the only difference is that you won’t suffer from that internal conflict.
Does this contradict the people who say that meditation will make you actively happy?
No: it only means that Looking at the nature of suffering might not make you actively happy (in the sense of experiencing lots of positive emotions). Remember that there are many things that you can Look at: meditation is essentially focusing your attention on something, and what you focus on makes a major difference.
I think in terms of meditative practices that work within an existing system (of pleasure and pain), versus ones that try to move you outside the system entirely. Some traditions focus on working inside the system, and may involve things like conditioning your mind for constant pleasure. Some systems combine the two, involving both practices which increase the amount of pleasure you’ll experience, while also helping you be okay even with experiencing less pleasure. The Mind Illuminated takes this approach, for example.
And if enlightenment leaves your existing personality remains mostly intact, does it mean that Looking and meditation are useless for improving your rationality after all?
No. Again, it only means that Looking at the things which cause suffering, will not change your behavior as much as you might expect. Again, there are many different things about the functioning of your mind that you can Look at. And getting to the point where're you're enlightened, requires training up a lot of mental precision which you can then use to Look at various things.
Even if you do manage to defuse from everything that causes you suffering, your existing personality and motivational system will still be in charge of what it is that you Look at in the future. If all you cared about was ceasing to suffer, well, you’re done! You might not have the motivation to do any more Looking on top of that, since it already got you what you wanted. You’ll just go on living as normal, with your existing personality.
But if you cared about things like saving the world, then you will still continue to work on saving the world, and you will be Looking at things which will help you save the world - including ones that increase your rationality.
It’s just that if the world ends up ending, it won’t feel like the end of the world.
Of course, you will still feel intense grief and disappointment and everything that you’d expect to feel about the world ending.
Intense grief and disappointment just won’t be the end of the world.
[Edited to add: for my more detailed, later explanation of this topic, see the series of posts starting from A non-mystical explanation of insight meditation and the three characteristics of existence.]