All of Elizabeth's Comments + Replies

This theory feels insufficient to me, or like it's missing a step. It makes sense to me for people to pay when their preferred porn is undersupplied, but incest porn is now abundant. You need a more specific reason incest fans will pay even when they don't have to. 

Additionally, "but you're my stepdad" isn't equivalent to a couple of foot shots. Lots of people are (or at least were) turned off by incest. 

2Said Achmiz
One important consideration is that (unlike foot shots, for instance) “but you’re my stepdad” is only part of the audio stream, not the video stream. And the audio stream can (increasingly easily) be modified—or simply turned off.

It looks like you're right that he didn't receive much funding via networks or sending churches. The podcast describes initial support coming from "friends and family", in ways that sound more like a friends and family round of start-up funding than normal tithes. 

I'm still under the impression that he received initial endorsements, blessings, and mentorship from people who should have known better. 

In practice, newly planted churches[1] are cults of personality (neutral valence) around the planting team, or sometimes just the lead pastor[2]. "developing a theme which highlights the vision and philosophy of ministry" and "establishing a clear church identity related to the theme and vision" is inevitably[3] about selling yourself as a brand. 

It's possible to be a non-narcissist and pass this checklist, including the vision part. But it's a lot easier if you have a high opinion of yourself, few doubts, don't care about harming others, an... (read more)

Elizabeth*266

Last week I got nerdsniped with the question of why established evangelical leaders had a habit of taking charismatic  narcissists and giving them support to found their own churches[1]. I expected this to be a whole saga that would teach lessons on how selecting for one set of good things secretly traded off against others. Then I found this checklist on churchplanting.com. It’s basically “tell me you’re a charismatic narcissist who will prioritize growth above virtue without telling me you’re a…“. And not charismatic in the sense of asking reasonabl... (read more)

2DirectedEvolution
Interesting find. What about the visioning section conveyed “the dream that you are very important?” Or, alternatively, what do you mean by “dream” in this context?

From Auren. Note we had just been talking about church planting, and Auren has no way to reset state. We'd also previously talked about my taste in stand-up comics. 

 

My biggest outstanding question is "why did church network leaders give resources to a dude who had never/barely been to church to start his own?" There were probably subtler warning signs but surely they shouldn't have been necessary once you encountered that fact and the fact that he was proud of it. If anyone has insight or sources on this I'd love to chat. 

7DirectedEvolution
Mark Driscoll was raised Catholic, converted to evangelical Christianity at 19, got an MA in theology, connected with others who were associated with “church planting” efforts, and launched the first Mars Hill church in 1996 when he was 26. The church was initially in his home. So it seems he may have received coaching, training, and some limited support at that early stage, but probably not enormous financial resources.

Sometimes people deliberately fill their environment with yes-men and drive out critics. Pointing out what they're doing doesn't help, because they're doing it on purpose. However there are ways well intentioned people end up driving out critics unintentionally, and those are worth talking about.

The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill Church (podcast) is about a guy who definitely drove out critics deliberately. Mark Driscoll fired people, led his church to shun them, and rearranged the legal structure of the church to consolidate power. It worked, and his power wa... (read more)

9Elizabeth
My biggest outstanding question is "why did church network leaders give resources to a dude who had never/barely been to church to start his own?" There were probably subtler warning signs but surely they shouldn't have been necessary once you encountered that fact and the fact that he was proud of it. If anyone has insight or sources on this I'd love to chat. 

PSA: If you are older than ~30 you may have only received 1 dose of MMR vaccine (which includes measles), and should consider a second one. I have not done the EV math on this.

in 1989  the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP), the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), and the American Academy of Family Physicians (AAFP) all shifted from recommending 1 dose of the MMR vaccine to 2, with the second dose coming between 4-6 years old, because of outbreaks in adults who received only 1 dose. This means almost everyone who was 7 or older in 1... (read more)

Elizabeth*212

Recently Timothy TL and I published a podcast on OpenPhil and GoodVentures. As part of this, we contacted 16 people and organizations asking for comment. They were given access to the full recording as well as a searching transcript.

  • Responded with small correction- 2
  • Responded with medium size correction- 1
  • Responded with long correction- 2
  • Asked for more time- 2 (counted in other categories as well)
    • We offered one week to tell us if they were going to respond, an additional week to give a response that would be included in the recording, and longer for someth
... (read more)
2ozziegooen
Part of me wants to create some automated process for this. Then part of me thinks it would be pretty great if someone could offer a free service (even paid could be fine) that has one person do this hunting work. I presume some of it can be delegated, though I realize the work probably requires more context than it first seems. 
Elizabeth202

Justis upped the clarity of my writing by 10% with his constant reminders to clarify what I mean by "this", "that", and "things". 

8Adam Zerner
Haha, yup. I have a Shoulder Justis now that frequently reminds me of this to disambiguate words like "this" and "that", which I'm grateful for.
Elizabeth3737

"I told you so" is correct if you told someone something, they ignore it, and you were right. 

I had a good time at LessOnline last year and expect to have a good time this year, but if  Cremieux somehow ruins it for me, Eukaryote is absolutely entitled to tell me "I told you so". 

Elizabeth1910

There was some talk of disinviting him for plagiarism

Elizabeth154

Has anyone gotten good results with gemini doc editing? I have found it outrageously useless, but maybe I'm doing it wrong. 

5Steven Byrnes
Last week I used the google drive attachment option in google AI studio, with Gemini 2.5 pro, and asked it for copyediting things (typos, confusing wording, unexplained acronyms, etc.), then for things that could be deleted, then for things that could be added, then for things that seemed possibly incorrect. It was good! I mean, most of the suggestions were bad but enough were good that it was worth the time. (Sorry if you’re talking about something else.)
1satchlj
Inside of Google Docs you mean? Yeah, for some subset of tasks the 'select > menu click > Refine the selected text' tool has been useful.

I was pointing at the capacity to form a dependence on it, especially without realizing the extent, rather than decision making per-se. 

2Kaj_Sotala
Got it. The term implies something much more specific to me.

The plan was to build up some back catalog and then decide. Right now it looks like we're only going to do two more episodes so it doesn't seem worth setting up.

Thank you, I'm going to investigate this. 

I write shorter sentences thanks to the editing work of LW editor @JustisMills and the book Several Short Sentences About Writing.

I liked this post a lot more than I expected to, but I'm disappointed the only examples of lying are a combination of people who have no right to the information and people who are better off for you lying (in a way that gives them truer beliefs than if you'd told the literal truth).

The hard cases are much more interesting. What about lying to my landlord about renting a room on airbnb? What about saying your class will make people millionaires for the low low price of $1,000 (hey, it could happen)? What about hiding the rats from the health inspector?

3eva_
I'm not so much of a pragmatist to say that you should run naked scams (for several reasons including that your students will notice when they don't become millionaires later and possibly be vengeful about it, other smarter people will notice the obviously fraudulent offer and assume everything else you offer is some kind of fraud too, the greater prevalence of fraud in the economy will make everyone less willing to buy anything ever until the whole economy stops, etc.) but I am enough of a pragmatist to demand actual reasons about why it isn't wise or why it will have negative consequence. As for the landlord airbnb case, well I'd want to first ask questions about circumstance. You claimed a bandit doesn't have the right to the information, do you have a moral theory by which to say whether the landlord has a right to the information or not? Is the landlord already basically assuming you'll do this because everybody else does and they've factored it into the price of the rent, or would they spend resources trying to stop you? How much additional wear and tear would it cause, and would it be unfair to the landlord to impose those damages without additional compensation? The health inspector rats case, I'd similarly think it depends on whether the rats are a real safety hazard likely to make customers sick, or just a politically imposed rule that doesn't really matter that you're arbitrarily being forced to comply with anyway (in which case sure cover it up).
1Said Achmiz
None of these seem like hard cases to me. Lying is wrong (and pretty obviously so) in all three of these cases.

I would love to hear more about yc (and especially how you think it changed over time)

4 months ago I shared that I was taking sublingual vitamins and would test their effect on my nutrition in 2025. This ended up being an unusually good time to test because my stomach was struggling and my doctor took me off almost all vitamins, so the sublinguals were my major non-food source (and I've been good at extracting vitamins from food). I now have the "after" test results. I will announce results in 8 days- but before then, you can bet on Manifold.  Will I judge my nutrition results to have been noticeably improved over the previous results?... (read more)

Elizabeth*231

Hank Green on the worst things about no longer having cancer:

  1. During cancer you have a team of high status people actively working for your benefit. Suddenly, they are gone.
  2. You are not actually done.
    1. The cancer could return.
    2. you have to monitor for the cancer's return, so every weird thing your body does now feels threatening. This will never entirely go away.
  3. You have made a bunch of cancer friends, some of whom are doing much worse than you.
  4. The cancer and the treatment both leave a permanent mark on your body,
    1. including permanent disability.
    2. your you has gone
... (read more)
Elizabeth*105
  • Their romantic partner offering lots of value in other ways. I'm skeptical of this one because female partners are typically notoriously high maintenance in money, attention, and emotional labor. Sure, she might be great in a lot of ways, but it's hard for that to add up enough to outweigh the usual costs.

Assuming arguendo this is true: if you care primarily about sex, hiring sex workers is orders of magnitude more efficient than marriage. Therefor the existence of a given marriage is evidence both sides get something out of it besides sex. 

Elizabeth*1412

female partners are typically notoriously high maintenance in money, attention, and emotional labor.

 

That's the stereotype, but men are the ones who die sooner if divorced, which suggests they're getting a lot out of marriage. 

ETA: looked it up, divorced women die sooner as well, but the effect is smaller despite divorce having a bigger financial impact on women. 

7johnswentworth
Causality dubious, seems much more likely on priors that men who divorced are disproportionately those with Shit Going On in their lives. That said, it is pretty plausible on priors that they're getting a lot out of marriage.
Elizabeth699

According to a friend of mine in AI, there's a substantial contingent of people who got into AI safety via Friendship is Optimal. They will only reveal this after several drinks. Until then, they will cite HPMOR. Which means we are probably overvaluing HPMOR and undervaluing FIO.

2Nathan Helm-Burger
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/CHD5m9fnosr7L3dto/friendship-is-optimal-a-my-little-pony-fanfic-about-an?commentId=p6br8sPHG5QysfFkw
gwern4510

But did it inspire them to try to stop CelestAI or to start her? I guess you might need some more drinks for that one...

4Gunnar_Zarncke
Why do you think that is the case? I mean a) why do they reveal that only after a few drinks and b) why was that the convincing story - and not HPMoR?
Ben Pace121

I tried to invite Iceman to LessOnline, but I suspect he no longer checks the old email associated with that account. If anyone knows up to date contact info, I’d appreciate you intro-ing us or just letting him know we’d love to have him join.

Elizabeth133

follow up: if you would disagree-vote with a react but not karma downvote, you can use the opposite react. 

Elizabeth512

While we're at it, can it be >99% to match <1%?

4habryka
I tried and it looks bad for some reason, I think because the current order of the symbol reflects the position on the numberline and if you invert them it looks worse. I don't feel confident but think I prefer the current situation.
Elizabeth290

As a follow up on my previous poll: If you've worked closely with someone who used stimulants sometimes but not always, how did stimulants affect their ability to update? Please reply with emojis <1% for "completely trashed", 50% for neutral, >99% for "huge improvement".  

Comments with additional details are welcome. 

Reply322221111
5jp
From personal introspection (importantly not what the question is asking), there's a difference between my ability to update towards two views:  1. "Oh the situation is different than I thought, and actually I should turn most of my attention towards this new thing" 1. I'm better at this when I have more energy 2. "I made a mistake and should stop doing X, or admit past fault" 1. I get worse at that one On simple, questions of fact, that I've avoided tying into my ego in one way or another, I expect I'm better but I'm not sure.
TsviBT1517

(Mods: Consider having these number thingies sorted separately from other reacts, and by the number thingy rather than by # of votes.)

(Oh number thingy = percentage)

Sorry, I missed this too. The first-pass transcript was indeed done by AI. I went over it probably dozens of times, but I guess not enough.

Can you share data on the size of PauseAI protests over time?

Yeah the SF protests have been about constant (25-40) in attendance, but we have more locations now and have put a lot more infrastructure in place 

 

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/eUxJZk6niBI

Elizabeth278

Note that at time of donation, Altman was co-chair of the board but 2 years away from becoming CEO. 

Elizabeth123

Reasoning through a new example:

There's no google maps and no internet to help with finding a hotel. You haven't chosen a destination city yet. 

You could work out how to choose hotels and facilitate the group identifying the kind of hotel it wants. They're both robustly useful. 

You could start picking out hotels in cities at random. Somehow my intuition is that doing this when you don't know the city is still marginally useful (you might choose that city. Obviously more useful the smaller the set of possible cities), but nonzero useful. 

OTOH... (read more)

2CronoDAS
Hmmm. Taking this literally, if I didn't know where I was going, one thing I might do is look up hotel chains and find out which ones suit my needs with respect to price level and features and which don't, so when I know what city I want to travel to, I can then find out if my top choices of hotel chain have a hotel in a convenient location there. Meta-strategy: try to find things that are both relevant to what you want and mostly independent of the things you don't know about?

One possible reason: bouncing off early > putting in a lot of effort and realizing you'll still never get traction > being kicked out. Giving people false hope hurts them.

I don't think you should never help out a new person, but I reserve it for people with very specific flaws in otherwise great posts. 

oh not at all, I think I'm failing on both fronts

We're looking for signals which are widely broadcast throughout the body, and received by many endpoints. Why look for that type of thing? Because the wide usage puts pressure on the signal to "represent one consistent thing". It's not an accident that there are individual hormonal signals which are approximately-but-accurately described by the human-intuitive phrases "overall metabolic rate" or "stress". It's not an accident that those hormones' signals are not hopelessly polysemantic. If we look for widely-broadcast signals, then we have positive reason

... (read more)
Elizabeth213

How do stimulants affect your ability to update or change your mind? @johnswentworth and I are debating stimulant usage in an unpublished dialogue, and one crux is how stimulants affect one's ability to update. 

People who have used stimulants, please percent-emoji with how they affect your ability to update- <1% for "completely trashed", 50% for neutral, >99% for "huge improvement".  Comments with additional details are welcome. 

Reply1155421
4jimrandomh
Epistemic belief updating: Not noticeably different. Task stickiness: Massively increased, but I believe this is improvement (at baseline my task stickiness is too low so the change is in the right direction).
4Nebulus
(important note: I have a severe depression characterized by low motivation/energy and resistance to treatment) I take relatively frequently moderate doses of amphetamine-class stimulants, which gives me more cognitive bandwidth to work with. As such it's much easier for me to thoroughly examine a belief and update based on that examination, as it takes motivation/energy to do that in my case.
2EffectiveAdvocate
I feel like this is a double-edged sword situation. Stimulants do make you more focused and obsessive, but on a smaller scale, they make me less likely to adapt. For example, it becomes much harder to change my daily priorities when necessary. On the other hand, they allow me to engage with arguments far more deeply than I would otherwise be able to, which has led to a few significantly larger updates over time.
3DirectedEvolution
I drink about 400mg of caffeine daily through coffee and Coke Zero. It helps me process complex ideas quickly, consider alternatives, and lifts my mood. Without it, I get frustrated when I can’t follow arguments or understand ideas, often rejecting them or settling for “good enough.” Caffeine gives me the clarity and energy to stay open to new ideas and better solutions.  
8Jonas Hallgren
I've got a bunch of meditation under my belt so my metacognitive awareness is quite good imo. Stimulants that are attention increasing such as caffiene or modafinil generally lead to more tunnelvision and less metacognitive awareness in my experience. This generally leads to less ability to update opinions quickly. Nicotine that activates acetylcholine receptors allow for more curiosity which allow me to update more quickly so it is dependent on the stimulant as well as the generak timing. (0.6mg in gum form, too high spike just leads to a hit and not curiosity). It is like being more sensitive and interested in whatever appears around me If you're sensitive enough you can start recognizing when different mental modes are firing in your brain and adapt based on what you want, shit is pretty cool.
5Raemon
I haven't really explicitly checked this. I only use caffeine and (questionably counting) wellbutrin. I'll keep an eye out, especially if there's particular evidence about something to look out for. I have observed people on modafinil who seem to get more tunnel visioned and have a harder time reorienting but I haven't used it myself.

Just pushes the trust problem down a level. Lots of recruiting firms advertise positions that don't exist so that they have resumes "just in case"

David Maciver over on Twitter likes a zinc mouthwash, which presumably has a similar mechanism

I didn't read it but trust your assessment that Is Being Sexy For Your Homies was very male-POV. I also agree that LW is male-skewed in general. But I don't think (the way you describe) Being Sexy is representative of the way LW is male-skewed. I think it's more accurate to say most posts (but not Being Sexy) are aiming for some aspect X, and X tends to appeal to men more than women. 

Some things in the cluster of X: systematizing, high-decoupling, math-ey.

Answer by Elizabeth5-7

I loved the old mealsquares but have been very disappointed in version 2.0. They're similar to Tend bars, nutritionally dense but not filling. 

are you correcting for the year the test was taken? The SAT grading has shifted dramatically over time. 

1Rockenots
This is a good point. I don't think it should make that much of a difference given how young LessWrong is on average, but it can't hurt to try.  My two problem are 1) finding SAT statistics for nationally representative samples, and not just seniors that take the SAT (the latter are obviously selected) is difficult, and 2) I’d need more detailed data than just the SAT averages—I'd have to adjust each person’s SAT z-score based on the year they took the test.
Answer by Elizabeth70

A conversation I had in 2021

Them: Man I wish I could do X, it's so much more valuable then what I'm doing right now, but I can't.
Me: But could you though?

I'd forgotten this, but in 2023 they came up to thank me because they were doing X, were pleased with the choice, and assigned me some credit for it.  I've heard other people spontaneously praise project X, without knowing I'd been involved in any way. 

It's also very common for seeing someone at a conference to move them along the path of hiring me. Rarely from 0-> hired, but maybe from 0-> idea, or from "been meaning to"->hired, or something in the middle.

I'm having trouble parsing but I think the first point is about the mutation rate in humans? I don't expect that to be informative about flu virus except as a floor.

1pandamonium
Ah yes, you're right. I don't know why but I made the mental shortcut that the mutation rate was about the DNA of cows / humans and not the flu virus. The general point still holds : I am wary of the assumption of a constant mutation rate of the flu virus. It really facilitates the computation, but if the computation under this simplifying hypothesis leads to a consequence which contradict reality, I would interrogate this assumption. It's surprising to have so few human cases considering the large number of cows infected if there is a human-compatible viron per cow.  Another cause of this discrepancy could also be that due to the large mutation rate, a non-negligible part of the virons are not viable / don't replicate well / ...  There are papers which show heterogeneity for influenza / RNA viruses but I don't really know if it's between the virus population (of the same kind of virus) or within the genome. And they are like a factor 4 or so in the papers I have seen. So maybe less relevant than expected. Regarding the details, my lack of deep knowledge of the domain is limiting. But as a mathematician who had to modelize real phenomenon and adapt the model to handle the discrepancy between the model's conclusion and reality, that's the train of thought which comes naturally to mind. 

This post was hard for me to read. A few months after I wrote it I developed medical issues that are still ongoing and really sapped my ability to work. Right now I feel on the precipice of developing Large Scale Ambitions, and that I'd probably have taken the plunge to something bigger if I'd hadn't gotten so sick for so long. 

On the other hand, I spent the past 2 years trying to dramatically reform Effective Altruism. I expected to quit in May but got sucked back in via my work with Timothy TL.  I didn't think of this as ambitious, but looking ... (read more)

Thank you for the explanation.

Is there a reason you deflected when I originally asked about AI assistance? To me that's a much bigger deal than the AI assistance itself.

I think this is a useful concept that I use several times a year. I don't use the term Dark Forest I'm not sure how much that can be attributed to this post, but this post is the only relevant thing in the review so we'll go with that.

I also appreciate how easy to read and concise this post is. It gives me a vision of how my own writing could be shorter without losing impact.

I didn't keep good track of them, but this post led to me receiving many DMs that it had motivated someone to get tested. I also occasionally indirectly hear about people who got tested, so I think the total impact might be up to 100 people, of which maybe 1/3 had a deficiency (wide confidence intervals on both numbers). I'm very happy with that impact. 

I do wish I'd created a better title. The current one is very generic, and breaks LW's "aim to inform not persuade" guideline.

3Martin Randall
If anyone's tracking impact, my family had five people tested due in large part due to this post, of whom five were low and started supplementing. We're not even vegan.

My ultimate goal with this post was to use vegan advocacy as an especially legible example of a deepseated problem in effective altruism, which we could use to understand and eventually remove the problem at the root. As far as I know, the only person who has tried to use it as an example is me, and that work didn't have much visible effect either. I haven't seen anyone else reference this post while discussing a different problem. It's possible this happens out of sight (Lincoln Quirk implies this here), but if I'd achieved my goal it would be clearly visible. 

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