Don't Induce psychosis intentionally. Don't take psychedelics while someone probes your beliefs. Don't let anyone associated with Michael Vasser anywhere near you during an altered state.
Edit: here is a different report from three years ago with the same person administering the methods:
Mike Vasser followers practice intentionally inducing psychosis via psychedelic drugs. Inducing psychosis is a verbatim self report of what they are doing. I would say they practice drug induced brain washing. TBC they would dispute the term brain washing and probably would not like the term 'followers' but I think the terms are accurate and they are certainly his intellectual descendants.
Several people have had quite severe adverse reactions (as observed by me). For example rapidly developing serious literal schizophrenia. Schizophrenia in the very literal sense of paranoid delusions and conspiratorial interpretations of other people's behavior. The local Vasserite who did the 'therapy'/'brainwashing' seems completely unbothered by this literal schizophrenia.
As you can imagine this behavior can cause substantial social disruption. Especially since the Vasserite's don't exactly bel...
As one of what I believe to have been the targets/victims of “the local Vassarite” (though multiple people reviewing my initial draft have asked me to mention that Michael Vassar and this person are not actually on good terms), it seems reasonable for me to be the one to reveal the name and give concrete details, so that no one is harmed in the future the way I was nearly harmed. The person being referenced is Olivia Schaefer (known usernames: 4confusedemoji, liv.bsky.social, Taygetea), and this is a brief, roughly chronological account of some concerning actions she took towards me over the last few months.
Appreciate you sharing this. FWIW, I have heard of lots of really quite reckless and damaging-seeming drug consuming behavior around Olivia over the years, and am sad to hear it's still going on.
she attempted to pressure me to take MDMA under her supervision. I ended up refusing, and she relented; however, she then bragged that because she had relented, I would trust her more and be more likely to take MDMA the next time I saw her.
this seems utterly evil, especially given MDMA is known as an attachment inducing drug.
edit: more generally, it seems tragic for people who are socially-vulnerable and creative to end up paired with adept manipulators.
a simple explanation is that because creativity is (potentially very) useful, vulnerable creative people will be targets for manipulation. but i think there are also dynamics in communities with higher [illegibility-tolerance? esoterism?] which enable this, which i don't know how to write about. i hope someone tries to write about it.
in olivia's case, it seems like the algorithm she's running lately is roughly to try and make herself out as an authority to basically all of the late teens/early 20s transfem rationalists in a particular social circle. (we sometimes half-joking call outselves lgbtescreal, a name due to the beloved user tetraspace). i've heard it claimed by someone else in this community that olivia has bragged about achieving mod status in various discord servers we've been in, and derisively referred to us as "the 19 year olds" who she was nonetheless trying to gain influence over. i think olivia roughly just wants to be seen as powerful and influential, and (being transfem herself, and having a long history in the core rationality community) has an easy time influencing young rationalist transfems in particular.
I have no idea about other people lying due to JDP's influence. I had JDP look at a draft of Occupational Infohazards prior to posting and he convinced me to not mention Olivia because she was young and inexperienced / experimenting with ways of being at the time, it was maybe too bad for her reputation to say she was a possible influence on my psychosis. I admit this was a biased omission, though I don't think it was a lie. (To be clear, I'm not saying I went psychotic because of Olivia, I think there were many factors and I'm pretty uncertain about the weighting)
I don't necessarily agree with every line in this post—I'd say I'm better off and still personally kinda like Olivia, though it's of course been rocky at times—but it does all basically look accurate to me. She stayed at my apartment for maybe a total of 1-2 months earlier this year, and I've talked to her a lot. I don't think she presented the JD Pressman thing as about "lying" to me, but she did generally mention him convincing people to keep her out of things.
There is a lot more I could say, and I am as always happy to answer dms and such, but I am somewhat tired of all this and I don't right at this moment really want to either figure out exactly what things I feel are necessary to disclose about a friend of mine or try to figure out what would be a helpful contribution to years old drama, given that it's 1:30am. But I do want to say that I basically think Melody's statements are all more-or-less reasonable.
Related, here is something Yudkowsky wrote three years ago:
...I'm about ready to propose a group norm against having any subgroups or leaders who tell other people they should take psychedelics. Maybe they have individually motivated uses - though I get the impression that this is, at best, a high-variance bet with significantly negative expectation. But the track record of "rationalist-adjacent" subgroups that push the practice internally and would-be leaders who suggest to other people that they do them seems just way too bad.
I'm also about ready to propose a similar no-such-group policy on 'woo', tarot-reading, supernaturalism only oh no it's not really supernaturalism I'm just doing tarot readings as a way to help myself think, etc. I still think it's not our community business to try to socially prohibit things like that on an individual level by exiling individuals like that from parties, I don't think we have or should have that kind of power over individual behaviors that neither pick pockets nor break legs. But I think that when there's anything like a subgroup or a leader with those properties we need to be ready to say, "Yeah, that's not a group in g
But I have observed this all directly.
This post feels like it's written on an unnecessarily high level of abstraction. What are the actual events you observed directly? What did you see with your own eyes or hear with your own ears?
I'm familiar with the events that Sapph refers to, and for the most part agree with the general description of them as well as the recommendations. If you don't want to become psychotic, don't do the things that are famously associated with becoming psychotic.
I think I know (80% confidence) the identity of this "local Vassarite" you are referring to, and I think I should reveal it, but, y'know, Unilateralist's Curse, so if anyone gives me a good enough reason not to reveal this person's name, I won't. Otherwise, I probably will, because right now I think people really should be warned about them.
I'd appreciate a rain check to think about the best way to approach things. I agree it's probably better for more details here to be common knowledge but I'm worried about it turning into just like, another unnuanced accusation? Vague worries about Vassarites being culty and bad did not help me, a grounded analysis of the precise details might have.
I consulted multiple people to make sure my impression was accurate .Every person, except you, agree you are much more schizophrenic than before the events. My personal opinion is you currently fit the diagnosis criteria. I do not accept that people are the unique authority on whether they have developed schizophrenia.
Not on LSD, I've done some emotional processing with others on MDMA but I don't know if I'd describe it as "targeted work to change beliefs", it was more stuff like "talk about my relationship with my family more openly than I'm usually able to."
I was introduced to belief reporting, but I didn't do very much of it and wasn't on drugs at the time.
No, I did not.
I have had LSD. I've taken like, 100μg maybe once, 50-75 a couple times, 25ish once or twice. No lasting consequences that I would personally consider severe, though other people would disagree I think? Like, from my perspective I have a couple weird long-shot hypotheses bouncing around my head that I haven't firmly disproven but which mostly have no impact on my behavior other than making me act slightly superstitious at times.
I had a serious psychotic episode, like, once, which didn't involve any actual attempts to induce it but did involve a moment where I was like "okay trying to hold myself fully to normality here isn't really important, let's just actually think about the crazy hypotheses." I think I had 10mg cannabis a few days before that, and it'd been like a month around a week and a half since I'd had any LSD. That was in late August.
Edit: Actually, for the sake of being frank here, I should make it clear that I'm not particularly anti-psychosis in all cases? Like, personally I think I've been sorta paranoid for my entire life and like... attempting to actually explicitly model things instead of just having vague uncomfortable feelings might've been good, e...
Thanks again.
I am currently holding a rough hypothesis of "when someone is interested in exploring psychosis and psychedelics, they become more interested in Michael Vassar's ideas", in that the former causes the latter, rather than the other way around.
I can attest to something kind of like this; in mid-late 2020, I
the girl in question has publicly declared some of the psychological techniques she uses on people in order to induce altered states to be downstream of michael
she talked with him sometimes in group conversations that included other people, 2016-2017. idk if they talked one on one. she stopped talking with him as much sometime during this partially due to Bryce Hidysmith's influence. mostly, she was interested in learning from him because he was a "wizard"; she also thought of Anna Salamon as a "wizard", perhaps others. Michael wasn't specifically like "I am going to teach Olivia things as a studient" afaik, I would not describe it as a "teacher/student relationship". at this point they pretty much don't talk and Michael thinks Olivia is suspect/harmful due to the whole Eric Bruylant situation where Eric became obsessed with Vassar perhaps due to Olivia's influence.
claims about Vassar aside, do I even have a reputation for being particularly disagreeable or overconfident, or doing so in the presence of people who have taken psychedelics? to my mind I am significantly less disagreeable and confident than high status rationalists such as Eliezer Yudkowsky and Nate Soares. I think my tendency with trips is to sometimes explore new hypotheses but have relatively low confidence as I'm more likely than usual to change my mind the next day. also, isn't the 'modest epistemology' stuff a pretty thorough criticism of claims that people should not "confidently expound in the nature of truth and society" that has been widely accepted on LW?
as another consideration, I have somewhat of a reputation for being a helpful person for people going through mental health issues (such as psychosis) to talk to, e.g. I let someone with anxiety, paranoia, and benzo issues stay at my place for a bit, she was very thankful and so was her mom. I don't think this is consistent with the reputation attributed to me re: effects on people in altered states of consciousness.
Events are recent and to some extent ongoing. Though the 'now they are literally schizophrenic' event occurred some months ago. Pacific northwest. This incident has not been written up in public afaik.
A second person has now had a schizophrenic episode. This occurred a few days ago. Though I do not think the second person will end up persistently schizophrenic.
I am not talking about any of the more well known cases.
The idea that people would do these things in the 'rationalist' community is truly horrifying to me. I am a believer in doing somewhat innovative or risky things. But you are supposed to do them somewhat safely.
....is the second person me? You can say it is if it's me, I don't think it's an inaccurate description. Edit: thought about it a bit more and yeah it is probably me
I looked into this and got some useful information. Enough people asked me to keep their comments semi-confidential that I'm not going to post everything publicly, but if someone has a reason to want to know more, they can email me. I haven't paid any attention to this situation since early 2022 and can't speak to anything that's happened since then.
My overall impression is that the vague stereotype everyone has is accurate - Michael is pretty culty, has a circle of followers who do a lot of psychedelics and discuss things about trauma in altered states, and many of those people have had pretty bad psychotic breaks.
But I wasn't able to find any direct causal link between Michael and the psychotic breaks - people in this group sometimes had breaks before encountering him, or after knowing him for long enough that it didn't seem triggered by meeting him, or triggered by obvious life events. I think there's more reverse causation (mentally fragile people who are interested in psychedelics join, or get targeted for recruitment into, his group) than direct causation (he convinces people to take psychedelics and drives them insane), though I do think there's a little minor direct c...
Is this someone who has a parasocial relationship with Vassar, or a more direct relationship? I was under the impression that the idea that Michael Vassar supports this sort of thing was a malicious lie spread by rationalist leaders in order to purge the Vassarites from the community.
I think "psychosis is underrated" and/or "psychosis is often the sign of a good kind of cognitive processing" are things I have heard from at least people very close to Michael (I think @jessicata made some arguments in this direction):
"Psychosis" doesn't have to be a bad thing, even if it usually is in our society; it can be an exploration of perceptions and possibilities not before imagined, in a supportive environment that helps the subject to navigate reality in a new way; some of R.D. Liang's work is relevant here, describing psychotic mental states as a result of ontological insecurity following from an internal division of the self at a previous time.
(To be clear, I don't think "jessicata is in favor of psychosis" is at all a reasonable gloss here, but I do think there is an attitude towards things like psychosis that I disagree with that is common in the relevant circles)
the kind of thing I have heard from Vassar directly is that, in the Lacanian classification of people as psychotic/neurotic/perverted, there are some things to be said in favor of psychotics relative to others, namely, that they have access to the 'imaginary' realm that is coherent and scientific (I believe Lacan thinks science is imaginary/psychotic, as it is based on symmetries). however, Lacanian psychosis has the disadvantage that people can catastrophize about ways society is bad.
more specifically, Vassar says, Lacanian neurotics tend to deny oppressive power structures, psychotics tend to acknowledge them and catastrophize about them, and perverts tend to acknowledge and endorse them; under this schema, it seems things could be said in favor of and against all three types.
this raises the question of how much normal (non-expert) and psychiatric concepts of psychosis have to do with the Lacanian model which relates to factors like how much influence Lacan has had on psychiatry. I asked Vassar about this and he said that 'delusions' (a standard symptom of psychosis) can be a positive sign because when people form actual beliefs they tend to be wrong (this accords with, for examp...
If any of my adoring fans, or anyone else, wants to grab lunch/dinner/a drink let me know. Im in SF for a bit. Lots to talk about. Also I try to do an hour plus of walking per day. So happy to walk. Though im not always up for a big hike. Lots to do.
I prefer to keep plans private but I'm making big progress on meditation and mental re-wiring. Am working on a way to publicly demonstrate. Public plans just stress me out. I recently set two pretty ambitious goals. I figured I could use psychedelics to turbo-charge progress. The meditation one is coming along FAST.
The other goal is honestly blocked a bit on being super out of shape. Multiple rounds of covid really destroyed my cardio and energy levels. Need to rebuild those before a big push on goal 2.
Everyone shits on younger people (say 14-22). But the younger people I interact with have a lot of great ideas and good perspectives. I am always happy to have a chance to learn from them. Why so much hate?
The coronavirus response has been so bad I no longer doubt many Sci-Fi premises. Before I often said to myself "you have tech that can do X and you still have problem Y. Ridiculous!". But apparently, we can make a coronavirus vaccine in two days. But we still had over a year of lockdowns and millions of deaths. One in six hundred people in the USA have died of the virus but we blocked a vaccine because one in a million people who take it MIGHT develop treatable blood clots.
My standards for 'realistic' dysfunction have gotten a lot lower.
If you are trying to get people into an investment don't mention the price you got in at. Mentioning it just makes them less likely to buy-in. They don't have a time machine so they don't need to know. What matters is why you think the current price is too low.
Serious advice: Your close friends and partners should actively admire you and how you live your life. Don't settle for less. You can have less close relations across the divide. But your closest circle should see you as a hero.
I recovered from surgery alone.
I had extensive facial feminization surgery. My jaw was drilled down. Same with brow ridge. Nose broken, reshaped packed. No solid go d for months.
Recovery was challenging alone but I was certain I could manage it myself. I spared myself begging for help. The horror of noticing I was pissing off my friend by needing help.
No regrets. I'm quite recovered now. That was very interesting month alone.
I must have a different relation to social media to most rats. Whenever I open twitter I get a constant dopamine rush from all the stuff I find cute or funny. Here are some examples to demonstrate that maybe I am just easy to please:
I dont even live in SF. but I am visiting right now and having so much fun. Filled with joy at the idea of tetra having a lovely trip.
I used to feel CONSTANTLY gaslit reading the EA forum. For some reason this has substantially reduced in recent months. It feels like people actually lay out their actual reasoning. This is an example of a post that feels 'honest' to me and would be really unusual a few years ago: https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/qCF5kETxnk3HkfiEf/cause-generality-is-hard-if-some-causes-have-higher-roi.
For example: For years people would comment that EA seemed increasingly 'about' AI Risk. the response was almost always to point out most EA money goes to nea...
My favorite explanation of what it means to be a friend is "Pigs on the Wing"
You know that I care
What happens to youAnd I know that you care
For me tooSo I don't feel alone on the weight of the stone
Now that I've found somewhere safe to bury my bone
And any fool knows a dog needs a home
A shelter from pigs on the wingPink Floyd, Animals
Possibly my favorite written passage is the last verse of "Wish You Here". I thought about it all the time when I was separated from my best friend.
...How I wish, how I wish you were here
We're just two lost souls
Swimming in a fish
Explicit YOLO ALL IN numbers for my biggest bags. Until we hit these numbers I am not shoving everything:
Sol - 8
Matic - 0.3
FTT - 7.5
ETH - 500
BTC - 12K
Remember in 2018 ETH went 1400->89 and it wasn't all downhill. Lower highs, lower lows. Be ready for the opportunity.
I have been saying this on other forums (where more people listen to me) for over a week but I might as well post it here too:
I have been pushing crypto quite hard. I do NOT recommend buying crypto until momentum reverses. If taxes and bankroll were not relevant I would say buying and selling are probably close to equivalent with a slight preference to selling. Of course, this means I put a decent probability on a quick recovery but I am not betting on it. Make sure you have at least some dry powder for the deep bear market if it comes. I hope you took som...
Weight maintenance system I use and recommend:
1 - Weigh yourself daily right in the morning
2 - Have a narrow target band. IE 140-142 inclusive.
3 - If you are below the band eat something decadent. Maybe cake or ice cream!
4 - If below eat super low cal but have fun! Only fresh fruit day is dope!!!
FOUR ORIENTATIONS TOWARD LOVE
There is an emotion. It is something like 'the joy of connection'. Its the emotion that can make just sitting near a friend fun. Or hearing about their day. People definitely vary in how much they feel this emotion by default.
lets call this emotionC
Honestly emotionC + 'sexual interest' explains most of what almost everyone means by romance. But this has been, for various reasons, logical and historical, to have gotten quite confused.
There are really FOUR main ways people orient toward this situation:
1) TRAD solution: More or le...
Don't Induce psychosis intentionally. Don't take psychedelics while someone probes your beliefs. Don't let anyone associated with Michael Vasser anywhere near you during an altered state.
Edit: here is a different report from three years ago with the same person administering the methods:
Mike Vasser followers practice intentionally inducing psychosis via psychedelic drugs. Inducing psychosis is a verbatim self report of what they are doing. I would say they practice drug induced brain washing. TBC they would dispute the term brain washing and probably would not like the term 'followers' but I think the terms are accurate and they are certainly his intellectual descendants.
Several people have had quite severe adverse reactions (as observed by me). For example rapidly developing serious literal schizophrenia. Schizophrenia in the very literal sense of paranoid delusions and conspiratorial interpretations of other people's behavior. The local Vasserite who did the 'therapy'/'brainwashing' seems completely unbothered by this literal schizophrenia.
As you can imagine this behavior can cause substantial social disruption. Especially since the Vasserite's don't exactly believe in social harmony. This has all precipitated serious mental health events in many other parties. Though they are less obviously serious than "they are clinically schizophrenic now".But that is a high bar.
I have been very critical of cover ups in lesswrong. I'm not going to name names and maybe you don't trust me. But I have observed this all directly. If you are let people toy with your brain while you are under the influence of psychedelics you should expect high odds of severe consequences. And your friends mental health might suffer as well.
Edit: these are recent events. To my knowledge never referenced on lesswrong.
edit: For anyone who feels the connection to Michael Vassar is too tenuous. The Local Vasserite in question has directly stated "i purposefully induce mania in people, as taught by Michael Vassar" to multiple people.
I looked into this and got some useful information. Enough people asked me to keep their comments semi-confidential that I'm not going to post everything publicly, but if someone has a reason to want to know more, they can email me. I haven't paid any attention to this situation since early 2022 and can't speak to anything that's happened since then.
My overall impression is that the vague stereotype everyone has is accurate - Michael is pretty culty, has a circle of followers who do a lot of psychedelics and discuss things about trauma in altered states, a... (read more)