I did a bunch of research on this a while ago, here are my high-level conclusions:
I feel *so* pedantic making this comment — please forgive me — but also:
CeraVe may have degraded in quality when they were purchased by L’Oréal and potentially changed the source of the fatty alcohols in their formulation. Fatty alcohols that have been sourced from coconut are more likely to cause skin irritation than those that have been sourced from palm. Plus, retinoids can actually push these fatty alcohols deeper into the pores for the ultimate backfire effect. My source is u/WearingCoats on Reddit, who runs a dermatology practice and does product consulting for drugstore brands. She's another one of my favourite resources; I recommend running a search on her posts if there's something specific you're interested in learning.
In general, you don't want to use a moisturizer that is heavy or occlusive over retinoids. It could make the treatment more effective than intended, which might compromise your moisture barrier and contribute to irritated skin. Cetaphil may work better for you if you're going down that route. I personally own a variety of moisturizers, which I rotate depending on what else I'm using on my face, and the season.
This is a very fine point and nobody asked, but ...
- It takes about 6-8 weeks of regular use to start seeing benefits. I've been using it for over a year and I cannot believe how much better my skin is now compared to before I started.
Just wondering if you could expand on just what improvements you see? What features or criteria are you looking at and how you have been measuring the changes?
Weird side effect to beware for retinoids: they make dry eyes worse, and in my experience this can significantly decrease your quality of life, especially if it prevents you from sleeping well.
I live and die by hyaluronic acid. It doesn’t create permanent changes AFAIK but makes a massive difference for me day to day — plus or minus 5 years depending.
I watched this video and this is what I bought maximizing for cost/effectiveness, rate my stack:
Regarding sunscreens, Hyal Reyouth Moist Sun by the Korean brand Dr. Ceuracle is the most cosmetically elegant sun essence I have ever tried. It boasts SPF 50+, PA++++, chemical filters (no white cast) and is very pleasant to the touch and smell, not at all a sensory nightmare.
Most sunscreen feels horrible and slimy (especially in the US where the FDA has not yet approved the superior formulas available in Europe and Asia).
What superior formulas available in Europe would you recommend?
What do you think is the strongest evidence on sunscreen? I've read mixed things on its effectiveness.
Seems like the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of sunscreen, the studies I've seen against it generally seem to not address the obvious confounder that people who tend to wear sunscreen more are also the ones who have a lifestyle that involves being in the sun a lot more.
Retinoids, which is a big family of compounds but I would go with adapalene, which has better safety/side effect than anything else. It has less scientific evidence for anti-aging than other retinoids (and is not marketed for that purpose), but I've tried it myself (bought it for acne), and it has very obvious anti-wrinkle effects within like a week. You can get generic 0.1% adapalene gel on Amazon for 1.6oz/$12.
(I'm a little worried about long term effects, i.e. could the increased skin turnover mean faster aging in the long run, but can't seem to find any data or discussion about it.)
David Sinclair mentioned in a podcast that he is also a bit worried about the long term anabolic effects of the retinoids. He suggested cycling it, possibly synchronized with other catabolic cycling such as fasting.
This post has some useful info:
https://milkyeggs.com/biology/lifespan-extension-separating-fact-from-fiction/
It basically says that sunscreen, ceramide moisturizers, and retinols are the main evidence-based skincare products. I would guess that more expensive versions of these don't add much value.
Some amount of experimentation is required to find products that don't irritate your skin.
This is my first time posting to LessWrong! Thanks for asking such an exciting question!
One of my favourite resources is Chemist Confessions. They have a great book that I would recommend as a primer. They often review studies on their podcast and blog, but I'd probably check out the book first.
Stating the obvious, but is it possible for you to see a dermatologist? They might not be trained extensively on the cosmetics side of things, but they'll be able to get you started with a solid routine.
Also, can we please have more threads like this? I think this is the most women I’ve ever seen in one place on LessWrong, like, ever, and it’s really lovely and fun.
Thanks for this!
Does it really make sense to see a dermatologist for this? I don't have any particular problem I am trying to fix other than "being a woman in her 40s (and contemplating the prospect of her 50s, 60s etc with dread)". Also, do you expect the dermatologist to give better advice than people in this thread or the resources they linked? (Although, the dermatologist might be better familiar with specific products available in my country.)
I would also like to recommend the INCI (International Nomenclature of Cosmetic Ingredients) decoder tool: https://incidecoder.com/. It explains the ingredients of your skincare products and points out potential hazards, such as irritancy and comedogenicity. It's easy to use and you have the ability to compare products.
I watched and read a ton of Lab Muffin Beauty Science when I got into skincare. Apart from Sunscreen, I think a lot of it is trial and error with what has good short-term effects. I'm not sure about long-term effects at all tbh. Lab Muffin Beauty Science is helpful for figuring out your skin type, leads for which products to try first, and how to use them. (There's a fair number of products you wanna ramp up slowly and even by the end only use on some days.)
'Evidence based' in the skincare industry mostly means a company paid a consultancy to do 'scientific testing.' Very little shows any signs of actual large effect sizes other than blocking UV damage, afaik. Moisturizer does seem to help, especially in low humidity climes. Which moisturizer your skin responds best to seems to be trial and error, ie the detectable/subjective metrics are all we really have. Retinoids are one exception, but come with tradeoffs that I don't fully understand.
I settled on snail mucin as a more natural alternative, but a significant fraction of people have mild allergic reactions to it apparently.
Snail mucin is one of those products that has less evidence behind it, besides its efficacy as a humectant, compared to the claims you'll often see in marketing. Here's a 1-minute video about it.
It's true that just because a research paper was published, it doesn’t mean that the results are that reliable — if you dig into the studies that are cited in ads, you'll often find out they had a very small number of participants, or they only did in vitro testing, or they graded their product based on the participants' feelings, or something like that.
I’d a...
I know LW is US/ California heavy, but just as a counter to all the sunscreen advocates here, daily sunscreen use is probably unnecessary, and possibly actively harmful, in winter and/or at northern latitudes.
There doesn't seem to be much data on using sunscreen when there's no real risk to skin, but you can find a modelling study here:
"There is little biological justification in terms of skin health for applying sunscreen over the 4–6 winter months at latitudes of 45° N and higher (most of Europe, Canada, Hokkaido, Inner Mongolia etc.) whereas year-round sunscreen is advised at latitudes of 30° N (e.g. Southern U.S., Shanghai, North Africa) and lower ... Using products containing UV filters over the winter months at more northerly latitudes could lead to a higher number of people with vitamin D deficiency."
Although most approved sunscreens are generally seen as safe, there are potential systemic health risks from a few products, some proven environmental harms, a potentially increased risk of vit-D deficiency, and some time/financial costs.
The question of what kind of sun exposure leads to visible skin aging is an empiric one. Saying "We err on the cautious side and assume that an arbitrary value of 0.5 SED could be regarded as an acceptable daily erythemal exposure" does not imply that there's no visible skin aging under that arbitrary value.
An important thing to keep in mind is that cosmetics companies don't necessarily have the money that e.g. pharmaceutical companies do to push large-scale studies on their products, so lack of evidence usually means a study wasn't done, rather than a study was done and found inconclusive.
If you haven't heard of it before, the subreddit 'SkincareAddiction' has some great recommendations for what's evidence-based and what works.
I would bet that sunscreen dwarfs all other effects in the long run
You mean in a positive or negative way? Harmful? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5615097/ , and/or useless? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447210/
Has anyone tried OneSkin/does it actually do what it claims? It acts on a mechanism independent from tretonin.
Surprised to see nobody mentioned Microneedling yet. I'm not skilled in evaluating scientific evidence, but the takeaway from https://consensus.app/results/?q=Microneedling effectiveness &synthesize=on can hardly be anything else than clearly recommending microneedling.
I'm using Differin and I can add a few more tips that I've heard and can confirm personally: the purging period can last several weeks and you should see improvement after a few months. It's best to do every other day or every few days initially and then ramp up to daily (for me, this helped avoid a lot of peeling). It's best to apply it after allowing your face to dry so that it's not too intense, and many people also prefer to layer it on top of a buffer like a moisturizer, so you would wash, apply moisturizer, wait 20-30 min, and then apply the product. People particularly like to buffer for the area under their eyes.
Also, a lot of people find that their retinol reacts poorly with other "actives" like glycolic acid etc. I don't think you should do them in the same day, and you shouldn't introduce them to your routine immediately with retinol.
Yeah, glycolic acid is an exfoliant. The retinoid family also promotes cell turnover, but in a different way. You'd be over-exfoliating by using both of them at the same time.
It seems underrated for LessWrong to have cached high quality answers to questions like this. Also stuff on exercise, nutrition, parenting and schooling. That we don't really have a clear set seems to point towards this being difficult or us being less competent than we'd like.
I expect that these are among the harder YMMV questions, where the right answer really does differ a lot from person to person and over time.
In that sense, a think an actually-high-quality cached answer would look like a giant flowchart where you need months of self-experimenting and data collection at each decision point to make an informed choice, and even then the best-available studies will usually give low confidence in the result. And for parenting and schooling, aging is one way, so it's not always possible even in principle to do the needed testing for a given individual.
The LessWrong Review runs every year to select the posts that have most stood the test of time. This post is not yet eligible for review, but will be at the end of 2025. The top fifty or so posts are featured prominently on the site throughout the year.
Hopefully, the review is better than karma at judging enduring value. If we have accurate prediction markets on the review results, maybe we can have better incentives on LessWrong today. Will this post make the top fifty?
The beauty industry offers a large variety of skincare products (marketed mostly at women), differing both in alleged function and (substantially) in price. However, it's pretty hard to test for yourself how much any of these product help. The feedback loop for things like "getting less wrinkles" is very long.
So, which of these products are actually useful and which are mostly a waste of money? Are more expensive products actually better or just have better branding? How can I find out?
I would guess that sunscreen is definitely helpful, and using some moisturizers for face and body is probably helpful. But, what about night cream? Eye cream? So-called "anti-aging"? Exfoliants?