Seriously, in what sense did rationalists "pwn covid"? Did they build businesses that could reliably survive a year of person-to-person contact being restricted across the planet? Did they successfully lobby governments to invest properly in pandemic response before anything happened? Did they invest in coronavirus vaccine research so that we had a vaccine ready before the pandemic started? Did they start a massive public information campaign that changed people's behaviour and stopped the disease from spreading exponentially? Did they all move to an island nation where they could continue life as normal by shutting the border?
Honestly, it seems pretty distasteful to say that anyone 'pwned' a disease that has now killed over 1 million people, but on the face of it, it's also pretty ridiculous. So far as I can tell, a small handful of people divested a small amount of their stock portfolio, and a bunch of people wrote some articles about how the disease was likely to be a big deal, mostly around the time other people were also starting to come to the same conclusion. By late February it was probably already too late to start stockpiling for a quarantine without effectively tak...
FWIW I left a decent job that required regular air travel to deep red "COVID is a liberal hoax" areas of the US based heavily on content here. I had alternatives lined up but I probably would've stuck it out otherwise and I think that would've been a mistake.
We didn't get COVID, for starters. I live in NYC, where approximately 25% of the population got sick but no rationalists that I'm aware of did.
I'm actually confused by that response, and I don't think it's really part of your best attempt to explain what you meant by 'rationalists pwned covid'. I'll try to explain why I'm unimpressed with that response below, but I think we're in danger of getting into a sort of 'point-scoring' talking past each other. Obviously there were a few rhetorical flourishes in my original response, but I think the biggest part of what I'm trying to say is that the actual personal benefits to most people of being ahead of the curve on thinking about the pandemic were pretty minimal, and I think avoiding infection would fall in that 'minimal benefit' bucket for most of us.
I think we can be a bit more concrete - I think the actual personal benefits to either you or me of being aware of what was happening with COVID slightly before everyone else were pretty minimal. I really liked your article from February, and I really think the points you were making about conformity bias are probably the strongest part of your argument that rationality has practical uses, but you pretty much said yourself in that post that the actual, practical benefits were not that big:
"Aside from selling the equit...
Third, as I said above, it’s a pretty low bar. If you’re rich enough (and don’t work at a hospital), avoiding personally getting infected is relatively straightforward, and while obviously it has some benefits, I don’t think it would be enough of an incentive to convince me to take on a whole new worldview.
My personal experience is consistent with this take, for what it’s worth. I think that “rationalists didn’t get COVID” is indeed mostly due to substantially higher average income (perhaps not even among ‘rationalists’ but specifically among Jacob’s friends/acquaintances).
The best startup people were similarly early, and I respect them a lot for that. If you know of another community or person that publicly said the straightforward and true things in public back in February, I am interested to know who they are and what other surprising claims they make.
I do know a lot of rationalists who put together solid projects and have done some fairly useful things in response to the pandemic – like epidemicforecasting.org and microcovid.org, and Zvi's and Sarah C's writing, and the LW covid links database, and I heard that Median group did a bunch of useful things, and so on. Your comment makes me think I should make a full list somewhere to highlight the work they've all done, even if they weren't successful.
I wouldn't myself say we've pwned covid, I'd say some longer and more complicated thing by default that points to our many flaws while highlighting our strengths. I do think our collective epistemic process was superior to that of most other communities, in that we spoke about it plainly (simulacra level 1) in public in January/February, and many of us worked on relevant projects.
I didn't really see much public discussion early outside of epidemiology Twitter. I'm married to an epidemiologist who stocked our flat with masks in December when there were 59 confirmed cases in Wuhan, and we bought enough tins of food to eat for a few weeks in January, as well as upgrading our work-from-home set up before things sold out. Although I completely failed to make the connection and move my pension out of equities, that doesn't actually seem to have cost me very much in the long run (for those keeping count, S&P 500 is up 17% year-on-year).
(The biggest very early warning sign, apparently, was that when there were 59 cases China was still claiming there was no person-to-person transmission, which seemed implausible).
I actually am impressed by how well the Lesswrong-sphere did epistemically. People here seem to have been taking COVID seriously before most other people were, but as I've tried to explain a bit more above, I'm not sure how much this good this did anyone personally. If the argument is 'listen to rationalists when they say weird things because they're more often right when they say weird things that most other people', then I think I'm on board. If the argument is 'try explicit rationality, it will make your life noticeably better in measurable ways', then I'm less convinced, and I think these really are distinct claims.
PS - your links seem to be broken, it's easy enough to follow them, as you gave full URL's, just thought I'd let you know.
Good on your spouse! Very impressed.
(Also, I don't get the S&P being up so much, am generally pretty confused by that, and updated further that I don't know how to get information out of the stock market.)
I think epistemics is indeed the first metric I care about for LessWrongers. If we had ignored covid or been confident it was not a big deal, I would now feel pretty doomy about us, but I do think we did indeed do quite well on it. I could talk about how we discussed masks, precautions, microcovids, long-lasting respiratory issues, and so on, but I don't feel like going on at length about it right now. Thanks for saying what you said there.
Now, I don't think you/others should update on this a ton, and perhaps we can do a survey to check, but my suspicion is that LWers and Rationalists have gotten covid way, way less than the baseline. Like, maybe an order of magnitude less. I know family who got it, I know whole other communities who got it, but I know hundreds of rationalists and I know so few cases among them.
Of my extended circle of rationalist friends, I know of one person who got it, and this was due to them living in a different community with different epistemic s...
there are two sides to an options contract, when to buy and when to sell. Wei Dai did well on the first half but updated in the comments on losing most of the gains on the second half. This isn't a criticism, it's hard.
I'd stress the idea here that finding a "solution" to the pandemic is easy and preventing it early on based on evidence also is.
Most people could implement a solution better than those currently affecting the US and Europe, if they were a global tsar with infinite power.
But solving the coordination problems involved in implementing that solution is hard, that's the part that nerds solving and nobody is closer to a solution there.
I think this post is doing a simplification which is common in our community, and at some point we need to acknowledge the missing nuance there. The implicit assumption is that rationality is obviously always much better than believing whatever is socially expedient, and everyone who reject rationality are just doing a foolish error. In truth, there are reasons we evolved to believe whatever is socially expedient[1], and these reasons are still relevant today. Specifically, this is a mechanism for facilitating cooperation (which IMO can be given a rational, game-theoretic explanation). Moreover, it seems likely that for most people, during most of history, this strategy was the right choice.
IMO there are two major reasons why in these times rationality is the superior strategy, at least for the type of people drawn to LessWrong and in some parts of the world. First, the stakes are enormous. The freedom we enjoy in the developed world, and the pace of technological progress create many opportunities for large gains, from founding startups to literally saving the world from destruction. Given such stakes, the returns on better reasoning are large. Second, we can afford the cost. Beca...
IMO there are two major reasons why in these times rationality is the superior strategy, at least for the type of people drawn to LessWrong and in some parts of the world.
A third reason is that believing in whatever is socially expedient works much better when the socially expedient beliefs have been selected to be generally adaptive. The hunter-gatherer environment didn't change much and culture had plenty of time to be selected for generally beneficial beliefs, but that's not the case for today's beliefs:
The trouble with our world is that it is changing. Henrich focuses on small scale societies. These societies are not static. The changes they undergo are often drastic. But the distance between the life-style of a forager today and that of her ancestors five hundred years ago pales next to the gap that yawns between the average city-slicker and her ancestors five centuries past. Consider the implications of what demographers call the "demographic transition model:"
...Each stage in the model presents a different sort of society than that which came before it. Very basic social and economic questions—including subsistence strategy, family type, mechanisms for mate selection, a
If I, a rationalist atheist, was in Francis Bacon's shoes I would 100% live my life in such a way that history books would record me as being a "devout Anglican".
(I don't think outsiders are more leery of the community because of its "ask culture" than of its "talk over people culture". It's something I have a problem with as a meetup organiser. Rats come fully prepared to sweep the floor, regardless of what happens to lie there.)
And how good are the best of us at bringing cookies and tea and just putting things on the table before we start disagreeing?
"Tact" is a field you build for the disagreeing to be around the issues that people truly just don't agree about, not a bullet to be shot at an opponent someone wants to be charitable to.
And how good are the best of us at bringing cookies and tea and just putting things on the table before we start disagreeing?
This is one of the things that drove me away from casual in-person “rationalist community” gatherings. My habit when getting together with my friends is to bring some cookies (or something along these lines); my friends usually also contribute something. So the first several times I came to small gatherings of rationalist-type folks, I indeed brought (homemade!) cookies for everyone.
It turned out that (a) I was the only one who ever thought to bring any such thing (even after the first time), and (b) while everyone else was clearly happy to eat the cookies, not only did no one ever thank me for bringing them, but no one even commented on them or acknowledged in any way that I’d brought said cookies.
So, I stopped bringing cookies, and then stopping coming to such gatherings.
This sounds like a strategic misstep, and I'm guessing it was caused either by a hyperalert status manager in your brain or a bad experience at the hands of a bully (intentional or otherwise) in the past.
I estimate that (prepare for uncharitable phrasing) asking anyone with your mindset to try to self-modify to be okay with other people taking steps to make everyone happier in this way is a smaller cost than a norm of "don't bring [cookies], rationalists will turn around and blame everyone who didn't bring them if you dare".
But yeah I think spending points to teach people not to defect against a bring-cookies-if-you-wanna norm (aka thank them, aka don't look askance at the but-I-don't-wanna) is waaay better than spending points to disallow a bring-cookies-if-you-wanna norm.
try to self-modify to be okay with
I'm okay with other people supporting norms that I don't support, and with following a norm that I don't support, if it happens to be accepted in a group. But there should be freedom to register disapproval of a norm, even when it ends up accepted (let alone in this case, where it apparently wasn't accepted). There is no call to self-modify anyone.
What felt annoying to me and triggered this subthread was that in Said's story there were only people who supported the norm he appeared to be promoting, and people who preyed on the commons. Disapproval of the norm was not a possibility, on pain of being bundled together with the defectors. This issue seems to me more important than the question of which norm is the right one for that setting (that is, which norm should have been supported).
There's a clever trick to this effect. You can say thank you for others' sake without eating! Wouldn't that just throw a spanner into their Machiavellian calculations on who owes whom.
"Everyone should occasionally sell some food for status" is not what's being discussed. Your phrasing sounds as though Said said everyone was supposed to bring cookies or something, which is obviously not what he said.
What's being discussed is more like "people should be rewarded for making small but costly contributions to the group". Cookies in-and-of-themselves aren't contributing directly to the group members becoming stronger rationalists, but (as well as just being a kind gift) it's a signal that someone is saying "I like this group, and I'm willing to invest basic resources into improving it".
If such small signals are ignored, it is reasonable to update that people aren't tracking contributions very much, and decide that it's not worth putting in more of your time and effort.
I agree with the more general point about importance of tracking and rewarding contributions, but in this subthread I was specifically discussing cookies and difficulties with graciously expressing my lack of appreciation for them.
rewarded for making small but costly contributions
There is nothing good about contributions being costly. With signaling, the cost should pay for communication of important things that can't otherwise be communicated, because incentives don't allow trust; here that piece of critical intelligence would be posession of cooking skill and caring about the group. The cost is probably less than the cost of time spent in the meeting, so the additional signal is weak. If you like cooking, the cost might actually be negative. If you are not poor, the signal from store-bought food is approximately zero. (As signaling is about a situation without trust, it's not the thought that counts. I'm not saying that signaling is appropriate here, I'm considering the hypothetical where we are engaged in signaling for whatever reason.)
And it should actually matter whether the contributions are appreciated. So I guess it's possible that there is a difference in how people respond to costly signals, compared to useful contributions of indeterminate cost.
Our results were: 1) bought and forgot to eat; 2) bought enough for people who came there from home but too little for people who came from work; 3) bought and ate; 4) forgot to buy; 5) got so hungry we had to stop talking (about food) and send a guy out for sandwiches; 6) bought and saw that someone brought their own food, too, so we had to redistribute the leftovers... I mean, we are just great at this planning thing...
...but if you offer me to guess, I'd wager people said it's really just not worth a bother.
If you've ever been to a CFAR workshop, you're aware of just how strong rationalists are at bringing forth the greatest snacks known to mankind :)
(Will edit to reply to the other part of your comment in a bit, in a meeting now.)
Thank you, that instills hope. I've got to send c. 75% of them to CFAR and we're golden.
(Sorry about carrying on like this, I'm a bit mad right now. I have just lost a very nice and thoughtful introverted person (who is also an LW follower of several years) from our local online discussion group and nobody even noticed. I went to their discussion group last year, it was a dream come true, although not strictly LW-themed. And now she tried us out and withdrew. We didn't even get to disagree about anything.)
But seriously, a post on Meetup Food sometime before people can meet offline might be a good idea!
I'm sorry you lost the person from joining your discussion group. (PM'd you, I'd be interested to hear more about your group, and chat about how to cause cool people to reliably stick around.)
Much of this thread is long time rationalists talking about the experience of new people like me. Here's my experience as someone who found rationality a year ago. It bears more closely on the question than the comments of outliers. I read the sequences then applied rat ideas to dating, and my experience closely resembles Jacobians model. Note that LW has little dating advice, so I did the research and application myself. I couldn't just borrow techniques, had to apply rationality[^1]. My experience is evidence that rationality is improving our outcomes.
I picked up The Sequences in February 2020 on a recommendation from 80k. I read the Yud's sequences cover to cover. Their value was immediately obvious to me, and I read deeply.
I finished the sequences in May, and immediately started applying it to my problems. My goal was not to look cool or gain status on a weird blog. I just wanted to make my life better, and The Sequences gave me a sense that more was possible.
Improving my romantic life has been my greatest rationality project. Dating was a hard part of my life. After The Sequences I realized most dating advice rested on Fake Explanations, anti-reductionism, just-world bias, an...
The Rationality community [...] has been the main focus of Rationality [...] rationality's most famous infohazard [...] join the tribe [bolding mine]
I agree that explicit reasoning is powerful and that the lesswrong.com website has hosted a lot of useful information about COVID-19, but this self-congratulatory reification of "the community"—identifying "rationality" (!!) with this particular cluster of people who read each other's blogs—is super toxic. (Talk about "bucket errors"!) Our little robot cult does not have a monopoly on reason itself!
the young rationalist must navigate strange status hierarchies and bewildering memeplexes. I've seen many people bounce off the Rationalist community over those two things.
Great! If bright young people read and understand the Sequences and go on to apply the core ideas (Bayesian reasoning, belief as anticipated experience, the real reasons being the ones that compute your decision, &c.) somewhere else, far away from the idiosyncratic status hierarchy of our idiosyncratic robot cult, that's a good thing. Because it is about the ideas, not just roping in more warm bodies to join the tribe, right?!
Rationality has benefits for the individual, but there are additional enormous benefits that can be reaped if you have many people doing rationality together, building on each other's ideas. Moreover, ideally this group of people should, besides the sum of its individuals, also have a set of norms that are conductive for collective truth-seeking. Moreover, the relationships between them shouldn't be purely impersonal and intellectual. Any group endeavor benefits from emotional connections and mutual support. Why? First, to be capable of working on anything you need to be able to satisfy your other human needs. Second, emotional connections is the machinery we have for building trust and cooperation, and that's something no amount of rationality can replace, as long as we're humans.
Put all of those things together and you get a "tribe". Sure, tribes also carry dangers such as death spirals and other toxic dynamics. But the solution isn't disbanding the tribe, that's throwing away the baby with the bathwater. The solution is doing the hard work of establishing norms that make the tribe productive and beneficial.
Sure, tribes also carry dangers such as death spirals and other toxic dynamics. But the solution isn't disbanding the tribe, that's throwing away the baby with the bathwater.
I think we need to be really careful with this and the dangers of becoming a "tribe" shouldn't be understated w.r.t our goals. In a community focused on promoting explicit reason, it becomes far more difficult to tell apart those who are carrying out social cognition from those who are actually carrying out the explicit reason, since the object level beliefs and their justifications of those doing social cognition and those using explicit reason will be almost identical. Likewise, it becomes much easier to slip back into the social cognition mode of thought while still telling yourself that your still reasoning.
IMO, if we don't take additional precautions, this makes us really vulnerable to the dynamics described here. Doubly so the second we begin to rack up any kind of power, influence or status. Initially everything looks good and everyone around you seems to be making their way along The Path^T^M. But slowly you build up a mass of people who all agree with you on the object level but who acquired their c...
The problems you discuss are real, but I don't understand what alternative you're defending. The choice is not having society or not having society. You are going to be part of some society anyway. So, isn't it better if it's a society of rationalists? Or do you advocate isolating yourself from everyone as much as possible? I really doubt that is a good strategy.
In practice, I think LessWrong has been pretty good at establishing norms that promote reason, and building some kind of community around them. It's far from perfect, but it's quite good compared to most other communities IMO. In fact, I think the community is one of the main benefits of LessWrong. Having such a community makes it much easier to adopt rational reasoning without becoming completely isolated due to your idiosyncratic beliefs.
So full disclosure, I'm on the outskirts of the rationality community looking inwards. My view of the situation is mostly filtered through what I've picked up online rather than in person.
With that said, in my mind the alternative is to keep the community more digital, or something that you go to meetups for, and to take advantage of societies' existing infrastructure for social support and other things. This is not to say we shouldn't have strong norms, the comment box I'm typing this in is reminding me of many of those norms right now. But the overall effect is that rationalists end up more diffuse, with less in common other than the shared desire for whatever it is we happen to be optimizing for. This in contrast to building something more like a rationalist community/village, where we create stronger interpersonal bonds and rely on each other for support.
The reason I say this is because as I understood it, the rationalist (at least the truth seeking side) came out of a generally online culture, where disagreement is (relatively) cheap, and individuals in the group don't have much obvious leverage over one another. That environment seems to have been really good for allowing p...
I think you are both right about important things, and the problem is whether we can design a community that can draw benefits of mutual support in real life, while minimising the risks. Keeping each other at internet distance is a solution, but I strongly believe it is far from the best we can do.
We probably need to accept that different people will have different preferences about how strongly involved they want to become in real life. For some people, internet debate may be the optimal level of involvement. For other people, it would be something more like the Dragon Army. Others will want something in between, and probably with emphasis on different things, e.g. more about projects and less about social interaction versus more about social interaction and less about projects. (Here, social interaction is my shortcut for solving everyday problems faced by individual people where they are now, as opposed to having a coherent outside-oriented project.)
But with different levels of involvement, there is a risk that people on some level would declare people on a different level to be "not true rationalists". (Those with low involvement are not true rationalists, because they only wan...
I think the point is to vigilantly keep track of the distinction between skills and tribes, to avoid any ambiguity in use of these different and opposed things, to never mention one in place of the other.
Skills and tribes are certainly different things, I'm not sure why are they opposed things? We should keep track the distinction and at the same time continue building a beneficial tribe. I agree that in terms of terminology, "rationalist" is a terrible name for "member of the LessWrong-ish community" and we should use something else (e.g. LessWronger).
They are opposed in the sense that using one in place of the other causes trouble. For example, insisting on meticulous observation of skills would be annoying and sometimes counterproductive in a tribe, and letting tribal dynamics dictate how skills are developed would corrode quality.
This might be possible, but should be specific to particular groups, unless there is a recipe for reproducing the norms. It's very easy for any set of beneficial norms to be trampled by tribal dynamics. The standard story is loss of fidelity, with people who care about the mission somewhat less, or who are not as capable of incarnating its purpose, coming to dominate a movement. At that point, observation of the beneficial norms turns into a cargo cult.
Thus the phenomenon of tribes seeks to destroy the phenomenon of skills. This applies to any nuanced purpose, even when it's the founding purpose of a tribe. Survival of a purpose requires an explanation, which won't be generic tribal dynamics or a set of norms helpful in the short term.
everything they do and think is strongly affected by the society
A skill-aspected tribe uses its norms to police how you pursue skills. Tribes whose identity is unrelated to pursuit of same skills won't affect this activity strongly.
The point is, the analogy fails because there is no "music people tribe" with "music meetups" organized at "MoreMusical.com". There is no Elizier Yudkowsky of "music tribe" (at most, everyone who appreciates the Western classical music has heard about Beethoven maybe) nor idea that people familiar with main ideas of music have learned them from a small handful of "music sequences" and interconnected resources that reference each other.
Picking at one particular point in the OP, there are no weird sexual dynamics of music (some localized groups or cultures might have, eg. one could talk about sexual culture in rock music in general, and maybe the dynamics at a particular scene, but they are not central to the pursuit of all of music, and even at the local level the culture is often very diffuse).
Music is widespread. There are several cultures of music that intersect with the wider society : no particular societal group has any claim of monopoly on teaching appreciation or practice of music. There is so much music that there are economies of music. There are many academies, even more teachers, untold amount of people who have varying expertise in playing instruments who apply them for...
The signaling commons is full of noise of the form 'do this thing and you'll win.' What do costly signals look like here? Many of the traditional ones have fallen apart as things are changing so fast that no one listens to older folks who could in the past have told you the outcomes of different strategies.
The Rationality community was never particularly focused on medicine or epidemiology. And yet, we basically got everything about COVID-19 right and did so months ahead of the majority of government officials, journalists, and supposed experts.
...
We started discussing the virus and raising the alarm in private back in January. By late February, as American health officials were almost unanimously downplaying the threat, we wrote posts on taking the disease seriously, buying masks, and preparing for quarantine.
...
The rationalists pwned COVID
This isn't true. We did see it coming more clearly than most of the governmental authorities and certainly were ahead of public risk communication, but we were on average fairly similar or even a bit behind the actual domain experts.
This article summarizes interviews with epidemiologists on when they first realized COVID-19 was going to be a huge catastrophe and how they reacted. The dates range from January 15th with the majority in mid-late February. See also this tweet from late February, from a modeller working of the UK's SAGE, confirming he thinks uncontrolled spread is taking place.
...I have an email dated 27 Feb 2020 replying to a colleague:
I remember this post very fondly. I often thought back to it and it inspired some thoughts of my own about rationality (which I had trouble writing down and are waiting in a draft to be written fully some day). I haven't used any of the phrases introduced here (Underperformance Swamp, Sinkholes of Sneer, Valley of Disintegration...), and I'm not sure whether it was the intention.
The post starts with the claim that rationalists "basically got everything about COVID-19 right and did so months ahead of the majority of government officials, journalists, and supposed experts". Since it's not the point of the post I won't review this claim in depth, but it seems basically true to me. Elizabeth's review here gives a few examples.
This post is about the difficulty and even danger in becoming a rationalist, or more generally, in using explicit reasoning (Intuition and Social Cognition being the alternatives).
The first difficulty is that explicit reasoning alone often fails to outperform intuition and social cognition where those perform well. I think this is true, and as the rationality community evolved it came to appreciate intuition and social cognition more, without devaluing explicit re...
Gosh, I love this post immediately. Thanks for saying all of these things. I don't know why nobody said them all at once before. I expect to link this to friends a bunch in the future.
Curated. A lot of this was valuable, simple-language discussion of rationality, and the difficulties and costs associated with trying to become more rational. I expect this will inform my discussion of rationality going forward, and I'll likely link to it a lot. Furthermore, it's a very well put-together post. The images are great, the names are catchy, and it's very readable. I also found valuable much of the discussion under the post.
There were somewhat navel-gazing and narrative-building elements at the start that I'm not interested in curating, and for...
The Rationality community was never particularly focused on medicine or epidemiology. And yet, we basically got everything about COVID-19 right and did so months ahead of the majority of government officials, journalists, and supposed experts.
Based on anecdotal reports, I'm not convinced that rationalist social media early on is substantially better than educated Chinese social media. I'm also not convinced that I would rather have rationalists in charge of the South Korean or Taiwanese responses than the actual people on the ground.
It's probable that this...
I was behind the curve on COVID, but the Seattle Rationalists are my tribe, so the social cognition I got from them had me leading the pack with the other groups I interact with (ie. pushing my company to start work-from-home earlier, and getting extended family to cancel large family events).
Many ideas in this post can be broadened to paradigm shifts in general. Painters and mystics traverse similar obstacles.
Taking the pandemic seriously was not local to the rationalist community. Many people, including my father, began to take the pandemic seriously in late January. He avoided any major travel, and largely remained at home. He began to wear masks from early March, when cases were few. This is in India, not USA.
In my experience, most people hear/see/think/believe what they want to hear/see/think/believe. Searching for validation is a lot more fun than seeking an uncomfortable counter factual, exposing possible weaknesses or errors in your thinking, this, your position. It’s humbling and hard work to want to know if you’re wrong, but for some it’s the only satisfying path. Looking forward to being a little less wrong tomorrow...
I'll b honest, I almost stopped reading when the you said "Throughout March, the CDC was telling people not to wear masks and not to get tested unless displaying symptoms." as an example of how they got it wrong.
The reality is they did not encourage people to buy masks initially, because the very credible concern was that the public would hoard masks that were in short supply for people who absolutely needed them immediately. As soon as supplies were available, they recommended getting them for the public.
And similarly, the shortage of testing drove the ve...
Cross-posted, as always, from Putanumonit.
Rats v. Plague
The Rationality community was never particularly focused on medicine or epidemiology. And yet, we basically got everything about COVID-19 right and did so months ahead of the majority of government officials, journalists, and supposed experts.
We started discussing the virus and raising the alarm in private back in January. By late February, as American health officials were almost unanimously downplaying the threat, we wrote posts on taking the disease seriously, buying masks, and preparing for quarantine.
Throughout March, the CDC was telling people not to wear masks and not to get tested unless displaying symptoms. At the same time, Rationalists were already covering every relevant angle, from asymptomatic transmission to the effect of viral load, to the credibility of the CDC itself. As despair and confusion reigned everywhere into the summer, Rationalists built online dashboards modeling nationwide responses and personal activity risk to let both governments and individuals make informed decisions.
This remarkable success did not go unnoticed. Before he threatened to doxx Scott Alexander and triggered a shitstorm, New York Times reporter Cade Metz interviewed me and other Rationalists mostly about how we were ahead of the curve on COVID and what others can learn from us. I told him that Rationality has a simple message: “people can use explicit reason to figure things out, but they rarely do”
Rationalists have been working to promote the application of explicit reason, to “raise the sanity waterline” as it were, but with limited success. I wrote recently about success stories of rationalist improvement but I don’t think it inspired a rush to LessWrong. This post is in a way a response to my previous one. It’s about the obstacles preventing people from training and succeeding in the use of explicit reason, impediments I faced myself and saw others stumble over or turn back from. This post is a lot less sanguine about the sanity waterline’s prospects.
The Path
I recently chatted with Spencer Greenberg about teaching rationality. Spencer regularly publishes articles like 7 questions for deciding whether to trust your gut or 3 types of binary thinking you fall for. Reading him, you’d think that the main obstacle to pure reason ruling the land is lack of intellectual listicles on ways to overcome bias.
But we’ve been developing written and in-person curricula for improving your ability to reason for more than a decade. Spencer’s work is contributing to those curricula, an important task. And yet, I don’t think that people’s main failure point is in procuring educational material.
I think that people don’t want to use explicit reason. And if they want to, they fail. And if they start succeeding, they’re punished. And if they push on, they get scared. And if they gather their courage, they hurt themselves. And if they make it to the other side, their lives enriched and empowered by reason, they will forget the hard path they walked and will wonder incredulously why everyone else doesn’t try using reason for themselves.
This post is about that hard path.
Alternatives to Reason
What do I mean by explicit reason? I don’t refer merely to “System 2”, the brain’s slow, sequential, analytical, fully conscious, and effortful mode of cognition. I refer to the informed application of this type of thinking. Gathering data with real effort to find out, crunching the numbers with a grasp of the math, modeling the world with testable predictions, reflection on your thinking with an awareness of biases. Reason requires good inputs and a lot of effort.
The two main alternatives to explicit reason are intuition and social cognition.
Intuition, sometimes referred to as “System 1”, is the way your brain produces fast and automatic answers that you can’t explain. It’s how you catch a ball in flight, or get a person’s “vibe”. It’s how you tell at a glance the average length of the lines in the picture below but not the sum of their lengths. It’s what makes you fall for the laundry list of heuristics and biases that were the focus of LessWrong Rationality in the early days. Our intuition is shaped mostly by evolution and early childhood experiences.
Social cognition is the set of ideas, beliefs, and behaviors we employ to fit into, gain status in, or signal to groups of people. It’s often intuitive, but it also makes you ignore your intuition about line lengths and follow the crowd in conformity experiments. It’s often unconscious — the memes a person believes (or believes that they believe) for political expediency often just seem unquestionably true from the inside, even as they change and flow with the tides of group opinion.
Social cognition has been the main focus of Rationality in recent years, especially since the publication of The Elephant in the Brain. Social cognition is shaped by the people around you, the media you consume (especially when consumed with other people), the prevailing norms.
Rationalists got COVID right by using explicit reason. We thought probabilistically, and so took the pandemic seriously when it was merely possible, not yet certain. We did the math on exponential growth. We read research papers ourselves, trusting that science is a matter of legible knowledge and not the secret language of elevated experts in lab coats. We noticed that what is fashionable to say about COVID doesn’t track well with what is useful to model and predict COVID.
On February 28th, famous nudger Cass Sunstein told everyone that the reason they’re “more scared about COVID than they have any reason to be” is the cognitive bias of probability neglect. He talked at length about university experiments with electric shocks and gambles, but neglected to calculate any actual probabilities regarding COVID.
While Sunstein was talking about the failures of intuition, he failed entirely due to social cognition. When the article was written, prepping for COVID was associated with low-status China-hating reactionaries. The social role of progressive academics writing in progressive media was to mock them, and the good professor obliged. In February people like Sunstein mocked people for worrying about COVID in general, in March they mocked them for buying masks, in April they mocked them for hydroxychloroquine, in May for going to the beach, in June for not wearing masks. When someone’s view of COVID is shaped mostly by how their tribe mocks the outgroup, that’s social cognition.
Underperformance Swamp
The reason that intuition and social cognition are so commonly relied on is that they often work. Doing simply what feels right is usually good enough in every domain you either trained for (like playing basketball) or evolved for (like recoiling from snakes). Doing what is normal and fashionable among your peers is good enough in every domain your culture has mastered over time (like cooking techniques). It’s certainly good for your own social standing, which is often the main thing you care about.
Explicit rationality outperformed both on COVID because responding to a pandemic in the information age is a very unusual case. It’s novel and complex, long on available data and short on trustworthy analysis, abutting on many spheres of life without being adequately addressed by any one of them. In most other areas reason does not have such an inherent advantage.
Many Rationalists have a background in one of the few other domains where explicit reason outperforms, such as engineering or the exact sciences. This gives them some training in its application, training that most people lack. Schools keep talking about imparting “critical thinking skills” to all students but can scarcely point to much success. One wonders if they’re really motivated to try — will a teacher really have an easier time with 30 individual critical thinkers rather than a class of password-memorizers?
Then there’s the fact that most people engaged enough to answer a LessWrong survey score in the top percentile on IQ tests and the SAT. Quibble as you may with those tests, insofar as they measure anything at all they measure the ability to solve problems using explicit reason. And that ability varies very widely among people.
And so most people who are newly inspired to solve their problems with explicit reason fail. Doubly so since most problems people are motivated to solve are complicated and intractable to System 2 alone: making friends, losing weight, building careers, improving mental health, getting laid. And so the first step on the path to rationality is dealing with rationality’s initial failure to outperform the alternatives.
Sinkholes of Sneer
Whether someone gives up after their initial failure or perseveres to try again depends on many factors: their personality, context, social encouragement or discouragement. And society tends to be discouraging of people trying to reason things out for themselves.
As Zvi wrote, applying reason to a problem, even a simple thing such as doing more of what is already working, is an implicit accusation against everyone who didn’t try it. The mere attempt implies that you think those around you were too dumb to see a solution that required no gifts or revelations from higher authority, but mere thought.
The loudest sneers of discouragement come from those who tried reason for themselves, and failed, and gave up, and declared publicly that “reason” is a futile pursuit. Anyone who succeeds where they failed indicts not merely their intelligence but their courage.
Many years ago, Eliezer wrote about trying the Shangri-La diet, a strange method based on a novel theory of metabolic “set points” and flavor-calorie dissociation. Many previous casualties of fad diets scoffed at this attempt not because they spotted a clear flaw in the Shangri-La theory, but at Eliezer’s mere hubris at trying to outsmart dieting and lose weight without applying willpower.
Oh, you think you’re so much smarter? Well let me tell you…
A person who is just starting (and mostly failing) to apply explicit reason doesn’t have confidence in their ability, and is very vulnerable to social pressure. The are likely to persevere only in a “safe space” where attempting rationality is strongly endorsed and everything else is devalued. In most normal communities the social pressure against it is simply too strong.
This is I think is the main purpose of LessWrong and the Rationalist community, and similar clubs throughout history and around the world. To outsiders it looks like a bunch of aspie nerds who severely undervalue tact, tradition, intuition, and politeness, building an awkward and exclusionary “ask culture“. They’re not entirely wrong. These norms are too skewed in favor of explicit reason to be ideal, and mature rationalists eventually shift to more “normie” norms with their friends. But the nerd norms are just skewed enough to push the aspiring rationalist to practice the craft of explicit reason, like a martial arts dojo.
Strange Status and Scary Memes
But not all is smooth sailing in the dojo, and the young rationalist must navigate strange status hierarchies and bewildering memeplexes. I’ve seen many people bounce off the Rationalist community over those two things.
On the status front, the rightful caliph of rationalists is Eliezer Yudkowsky, widely perceived outside the community to be brash, arrogant, and lacking charisma. Despite the fact of his caliphdom, arguing publicly with Eliezer is one of highest-status things a rationalist can do, while merely citing him as an authority is disrespected.
People like Scott Alexander or Gwern Branwen are likewise admired despite many people not even knowing what they look like. Attributes that form the basis of many status hierarchies are heavily discounted: wealth, social grace, credentials, beauty, number of personal friends, physical shape, humor, adherence to a particular ideology. Instead, respect often flows from disreputable hobbies such as blogging.
I think that people often don’t realize that their discomfort with rationalists comes down to this. Every person cares deeply and instinctively about respect and their standing in a community. They are distressed by status hierarchies they don’t know how to navigate.
And if that wasn’t enough, rationalists believe some really strange things. The sentence “AI may kill all humans in the next decade, but we could live forever if we outsmart it — or freeze our brains” is enough to send most people packing.
But even less outlandish ideas cause trouble. The creator of rationality’s most famous infohazard observed that any idea can be an infohazard to someone who derives utility or status from lying about it. Any idea can be hazardous to to someone who lacks a solid epistemology to integrate it with.
In June a young woman filled out my hangout form, curious to learn more about rationality. She’s bright, scrupulously honest, and takes ideas very seriously, motivated to figure out how the world really works so that she can make it better. We spent hours and hours discussing every topic under the sun. I really liked her, and saw much to admire.
And then, three months later, she told me that she doesn’t want to spend time with me or any rationalists anymore because she picked up from us beliefs that cause her serious distress and anxiety.
This made me very sad also perplexed, since the specific ideas she mentioned seem quite benign to me. One is that IQ is real, in the sense that people differ in cognitive potential in a way that is hard to change as adults and that affects their potential to succeed in certain fields.
Another is that most discourse in politics and the culture war can be better understood as signaling, a way for people to gain acceptance and status in various tribes, than as behavior directly driven by an ideology. Hypocrisy is not an unusually damning charge, but the human default.
To me, these beliefs are entirely compatible with a normal life, a normal job, a wife, two guinea pigs, and many non-rationalist friends. At most, they make me stay away from pursuing cutting-edge academic mathematics (since I’m not smart enough) and from engaging political flame wars on Facebook (since I’m smart enough). Most rationalist believe these to some extent, and we don’t find it particularly remarkable.
But my friend found these ideas destabilizing to her self-esteem, her conception of her friends and communities, even her basic values. It’s as if they knocked out the ideological scaffolding of her personal life and replaced it with something strange and unreliable and ominous. I worried that my friend shot right past the long path of rationality and into the valley of disintegration.
Valley of Disintegration
It has been observed that some young people appear to get worse at living and at thinking straight soon after learning about rationality, biases, etc. We call it the valley of bad rationality.
I think that the root cause of this downturn is people losing touch entirely with their intuition and social cognition, replaced by trying to make or justify every single decision with explicit reasoning. This may come from being overconfident in one’s reasoning ability after a few early successes, or by anger at all the unreasoned dogma and superstition one has to unlearn.
A common symptom of the valley are bucket errors, when beliefs that don’t necessarily imply one another are entangled together. Bucket errors can cause extreme distress or make you flinch away from entire topics to protect yourself. I think this may have happened to my young friend.
My friend valued her job, and her politically progressive friends, and people in general, and making the world a better place. These may have become entangled, for example by thinking that she values her friends because their political activism is rapidly improving the world, or that she cares about people in general because they each have the potential to save the planet if they worked hard. Coming face to face with the ideas of innate ability and politics-as-signaling while holding on to these bucket errors could have resulted in a sense that her job is useless, that most people are useless, and that her friends are evil. Since those things are unthinkable, she flinched away.
Of course, one can find good explicit reasons to work hard at your job, socialize with your friends, and value each human as an individual, reasons that have little to do with grand scale world-improvement. But while this is useful to think about, it often just ends up pushing bucket errors into other dark corners of your epistemology.
People just like their friends. It simply feels right. It’s what everyone does. The way out of the valley is to not to reject this impulse for lack of journal citations but to integrate your deep and sophisticated friend-liking mental machinery with your explicit rationality and everything else.
The way to progress in rationality is not to use explicit reason to brute-force every problem but to use it to integrate all of your mental faculties: intuition, social cognition, language sense, embodied cognition, trusted authorities, visual processing… The place to start is with the ways of thinking that served you well before you stumbled onto a rationalist blog or some other gateway into a method and community of explicit reasoners.
This idea commonly goes by metarationality, although it’s certainly present in the original Sequences as well. It’s a good description for what the Center for Applied Rationality teaches — here’s an excellent post by one of CFAR’s founders about the valley and the (meta)rational way out.
Metarationality is a topic for more than two paragraphs, perhaps for an entire lifetime. I have risen out of the valley — my life is demonstrably better than before I discovered LessWrong — and the metarationalist climb is the path I see ahead of me.
And behind me, I see all of this.
So what to make of this tortuous path? If you’re reading this you are quite likely already on it, trying to figure out how to figure things out and dealing with the obstacles and frustrations. If you’re set on the goal that this post may offer some advice to help you on your way: try again after the early failures, ignore the sneers, find a community with good norms, and don’t let the memes scare you — it all adds up to normalcy in the end. Let reason be the instrument that sharpens your other instruments, not the only tool in your arsenal.
But the difficulty of the way is mostly one of motivation, not lack of instruction. Someone not inspired to rationality won’t become so by reading about the discouragement along the way.
And that’s OK.
People’s distaste for explicit reason is not a modern invention, and yet our species is doing OK and getting along. If the average person uses explicit reason only 1% of the time, the metarationalist learns that she may up that number to 3% or 5%, not 90%. Rationality doesn’t make one a member of a different species, or superior at all tasks.
The rationalists pwned COVID, and this may certainly inspire a few people to join the tribe. As for everyone else, it’s fine if this success merely raises our public stature a tiny bit, lets people see that weirdos obsessed with explicit reason have something to contribute. Hopefully it will make folk slightly more likely to listen to the next nerd trying to tell them something using words like “likelihood ratio” and “countersignaling”.
Because if you think that COVID was really scary and our society dealt with it really poorly — boy, have we got some more things to tell you.