Related: Book Review: On the Edge: The Gamblers I have previously been heavily involved in sports betting. That world was very good to me. The times were good, as were the profits. It was a skill game, and a form of positive-sum entertainment, and I was happy to participate and help ensure the sophisticated customer got a high quality product. I knew it wasn’t the most socially valuable enterprise, but I certainly thought it was net positive. When sports gambling was legalized in America, I was hopeful it too could prove a net positive force, far superior to the previous obnoxious wave of daily fantasy sports.

It brings me no pleasure to conclude that this was not the case. The results are in. Legalized mobile gambling on sports, let alone casino games, has proven to be a huge mistake. The societal impacts are far worse than I expected.

The Short Answer

Joe Weisenthal: Why is it that sports gambling, specifically, has elicited a lot of criticism from people that would otherwise have more laissez faire sympathies?

This full post is the long answer. The short answer is that it is clear from studies and from what we see with our eyes that ubiquitous sports gambling on mobile phones, and media aggressively pushing wagering, is mostly predation on people who suffer from addictive behaviors. That predation, due to the costs of customer acquisition and retention and the regulations involved, involves pushing upon them terrible products offered at terrible prices, pushed throughout the sports ecosystem and via smartphones onto highly vulnerable people. This is not a minor issue. This is so bad that you can pick up the impacts in overall economic distress data. The price, on so many levels, is too damn high.

Paper One: Bankruptcies

We start with discussion of one of several new working papers studying the financial consequences of legalized sports betting. The impacts include a 28% overall increase in bankruptcies (!).

Brett Hollenbeck: *Working Paper Alert*: “The Financial Consequences of Legalized Sports Gambling” by Poet Larsen, @dade_us and myself. We study how the widespread legalization of sports gambling over the past five years has impacted consumer financial health. In 2018, SCOTUS ruled that states cannot be prohibited from allowing sports betting, and 38 states have since legalized sports gambling. This has led to a large new industry and a large increase in gambling accessibility. Roughly $300 billion has been bet and is growing fast.

Image

While for most gamblers it is a harmless form of recreation, we know that some fraction become problem gamblers with potentially severe financial consequences. We study these financial outcomes using a large and comprehensive dataset on consumer finances known as the UC Consumer Credit Panel (maintained by @CAPolicyLab). This allows us to track all credit and debt outcomes for roughly 7 million Americans. We leverage this data and compare states implementing sports gambling to those that don’t and study both sports gambling of any type as well as online/mobile gambling specifically. We study 8 financial/debt outcomes and find the following results: First, credit scores, a summary metric of overall creditworthiness, decrease by modest but statistically significant amounts (~1%). We also test for evidence of pre-trends between treated/control states and find none. … Second, several measures of excessive debt increase substantially. We find a roughly 28% increase in bankruptcies and an 8% increase in debt transferred to debt collectors. Similarly, auto loan delinquencies increase substantially as does use of debt consolidation loans. Interestingly, we find that banks restrict access to credit on average in affected states. Credit card limits decrease and the ratio of secured to unsecured loans increases. After three years post-legalization we actually find a decrease in credit card delinquencies as a result.

I expected some negative impacts. But a 28% increase in bankruptcies is far more than I would have predicted. The typical adult bankruptcy rate is about 0.16%, so this would mean about 4bps (0.04%)/year of additional bankruptcies, or an over 1% additional chance a typical person goes bankrupt during their lifetime. Alternatively as a sanity check, that’s on the order of 100,000 additional bankruptcies a year, which will rise over time if we don’t intervene. We are talking about an average handle of maybe 120 billion in 2023, but on average lower during this time period, let’s say average of 70 billion, with a likely sportsbook hold (before expenses) of something like 10% if we exclude advantage betters who are definitely not going bankrupt, given all the parlays and shaded lines and in-game betting and generally atrocious odds, so total net losses to ‘normal gamblers’ of 7 billion per year. That suggests that for every $70k in net sportsbook gross profits from regular gamblers, someone filed for bankruptcy. That seems like a lot? It means those who are inclined to bet on sports are either often doing it out of desperation, or that the same causes that lead them to bet on sports and pushing them to the financial edge in other ways as well, and this is the straw breaking the camel’s back. Claude found it all plausible when I had it do a bunch of estimations. I do notice I am skeptical. The result is clear. A bankruptcy is extremely socially expensive, on the order of $200k. That alone is almost triple the profits, and clearly wipes out all the social gains. Legalized online sports betting is currently a deeply, deeply horrible deal. I wish it were different. I am all for letting people do things, and I have enjoyed and benefited greatly from the ability to bet on sports. And yes, I do think the majority of people who play plausibly get their money’s worth in entertainment, even at the outrageous prices charged. The problem is if a majority get a small benefit, and others get a huge loss, that is on net a disaster. I can’t look at these findings, even if I don’t fully believe them, and not see a huge disaster from these effects alone. I also can’t see a way in which the positive-sum benefits could justify that disaster.

Paper Two: Reduced Household Savings

We can then add a second paper, “Gambling Away Stability: Sports Betting’s Impact on Vulnerable Households.” They found that sports betting greatly reduced traditional net investments, while traditional gambling stays unchanged.

Maxwell Tabarrok: The negative effects on investment are large relative to the sample mean. The average household invests about $360 a quarter so a $50 decrease in investment is a loss of 14%.

This includes households that never bet. If this is fully real, that’s holy **** territory. It’s an apocalypse. We are decreasing net household investment by 14%? Can there possibly be compensation for that? Alex Tabarrok notes that various details seem like they prove too much, and I agree it seems unlikely the effects are this large. But it can be a lot smaller than that, and still way too high. There are a variety of goods households can choose to consume, including traditional gambling. If sports gambling were a regular consumption good that consumers were choosing because they enjoy it more, it wouldn’t be having these effects. Eating dramatically into savings rather than shifting the consumption basket, while not even reducing traditional gambling, says that consumers are clearly not responding rationally, and do not understand the choices they are making.

Paper Three: Increased Domestic Violence

Here’s a third paper, showing that sports betting increases domestic violence. When the home team suffers an upset loss while sports betting is legal, domestic violence that day goes up by 9% for the day, with lingering effects. It is estimated 10 million Americans are victims of domestic violence each year. Claude estimates if you extrapolate from this result that there might be a 3% overall increase in domestic violence as the result of legalized sports betting, which seems non-crazy given that betting on NFL home favorites is only a tiny portion of overall losses. Again, this is an overall effect for the entire population. The percentage of people who bet on sports is rising rapidly, but even so only 34% said they placed even one bet in 2023, and many of those will be limited to nominal wagers on things like the Super Bowl and March Madness. This survey has 39% sports betting participation, with about 35% of betters betting at least once a week. So again, the effects on the households that actually gamble are far higher. This is a huge direct cost to bear. Domestic violence ruins lives. It also is a huge indicator that this is causing large amounts of distress in various forms, and that those gambling on sports are not making rational or wise consumption decisions.

The Product as Currently Offered is Terrible

Meanwhile, frankly, the product emphasis and implementation sucks. Almost all of the legal implementations (e.g. everyone I know about except Circa) are highly predatory. That’s what can survive in this market. Why? Predation is where the money is. There is no physical overhead at an online casino, but after paying for all the promotions and credit card payments and advertisements and licenses and infrastructure, the only way to make all that back under the current laws and business models is the above-mentioned 10%-style hold that comes from toxic offerings. Thus high prices even on the main lines, even higher ones on parlays and in-game betting. Whenever I see lines on the TV I usually want to puke at how wide the prices are. In game odds are beyond obnoxious. Anyone this drives away is a customer they have decided not to want. This is what the in-game odds look like when they’re relatively reasonable, and seriously, ow my balls:

Image

(This still shows how crazy the ‘win probability’ calculation they do is, given it’s well outside the odds they themselves are offering and also makes no sense, although an inning later it went far more insane and I can’t help but share, then aside over…)

All this is complemented by a strategy centered around free bet promotions (which makes the bonuses sound a lot bigger than they are), advertisements, promotional texts and emails and especially a barrage of push notifications. Anyone showing any skill? They are shown the door.

Things Sharp Players Do

I don’t think this is central to the case that current legal sports betting is awful, but it is illustrative what pros do in order to disguise themselves and get their wagers down. That to do that, they make themselves look like the whales. Which means addicts. I’m used to stories like this one, that’s normal:

Ira Boudway (Bloomberg): If I open an account in New York, maybe for a few weeks I just bet the Yankees right before the game begins,” says Rufus Peabody, a pro bettor and co-host of the Bet the Process podcast. If this trick works, the book sees these normie, hometown bets as a sign that it’s safe to raise his limits.

It seems players have upped their game.

One pro bettor I know set up a bot which logs in to his accounts every day between 2 and 4 a.m., to make it seem like he can’t get through the night without checking his bets. Another withdraws money and then reverses those withdrawals so it looks like he can’t resist gambling. Simulating addictive behavior, says Peabody, is an effective way to get online sportsbooks to send you bonus money and keep your accounts open. This isn’t necessarily because operators are targeting problem bettors, he says; they’re simply looking to identify and encourage customers who are likely to spend—and lose—the most. This just happens to be a good way to find and enable addicts, too.

The rest of the post is filled with the usual statistics and tragic stories. What I find interesting about these examples is that they are very level-1 plays. As in, this is exactly what someone would do if they thought they were up against a system that was looking for signs of what type of player you are, but only in the most mechanical and simple sense. For this type of thing to work, the book must not be looking at details or thinking clearly or holistically. If you had tried this stuff on me when I was watching customers, to the extent I noticed it at all, I am pretty sure I would if anything have caught you faster.

People Cannot Handle Gambling on Smartphones

Vices and other distractions are constant temptations. When you carry a phone around with you, that temptation is ever present. Indeed, I recently got a Pixel Watch, and the biggest benefit of it so far is that I can stay connected enough to not worry, and not be tempted to check for things, without the pull of what a phone can do. And we have repeatedly seen how distracting it is for kids in school to have the smartphone right there in their pocket. I have learned to be very, very careful with mobile games, even ones with no relevant microtransactions. Putting gambling in your pocket makes the temptation to gamble ever-present. Even for those who can resist it, that is a not so cheap mental tax to pay, and likely to result in the occasional impulse bet, even without the constant notifications. First hit’s free. Constant offers that adjust to your responses, to get you to keep coming back. Now consider that at least several percent of people have an acute gambling addiction or vulnerability. For them, this is like an alcoholic being forced to carry a flask around in their pocket 24/7, while talk of what alcohol to choose and how good it would be to use that flask right now gets constantly woven into all their entertainment, and they by default get notifications asking if now is a good time for a beer. You can have the apps back up and running within a minute, even if you delete them. It was plausible that this was an acceptable situation, that people could mostly handle that kind of temptation. We have now run the experiment, and it is clear that too many of them cannot.

Yay and Also Beware Trivial Inconveniences (a future full post)

I am coming around to a generalized version of this principle. There is a vast difference between:

  1. Something being legal, ubiquitous, frictionless and advertised.
  2. Something being available, mostly safe to get, but we make it annoying.
  3. Something being actively illegal, where you can risk actual legal trouble.
  4. Something being actively illegal and we really try to stop you (e.g. rape, murder).

We’ve placed far too many productive and useful things in category 2 that should be in category 1. By contrast, we’ve taken too many destructive things, too many vices, that we long had the wisdom to put in category 2, and started putting them in category 1. Prohibitions, putting such things into categories 3 and especially 4, tends to work out extremely poorly. Don’t do that unless absolutely necessary. Let people do privately destructive things if they want to do that. Often, it is important that you make doing the wrong thing a little annoying. It is especially important to not make it annoying to do the productive things, and not annoying to instead do the destructive things.

How Does This Relate to Elite Hypocrisy?

The elite refrains from irresponsible gambling, but here sets up conditions where such irresponsible actions are the inevitable result. The actual big elite hypocrisy is not the failure to impose paternalistic rules on the non-elite, it is that we constantly imposing extreme and expensive consumption requirements and restrictions on the non-elite when they are trying to live their lives and get their needs met. We impose these deeply restrictive, expensive and stupid elite norms on others all the time. This paternalism severely damages their lives in numerous ways. This is the core reason why it is so difficult for ordinary people to pay their bills or raise families, despite earnings that would make them rich elsewhere or elsewhen. These productive actions are severely restricted, because if you are going to be productive then you have to do so ‘correctly’ and obey all sorts of rules and requirements. Whereas if your actions are destructive, well then, go ahead, and it would be wrong of us to even enforce existing law. That is a deeply toxic approach. We should reverse it. We should allow people to do productive actions as freely as possible, and put up frictions to sufficiently destructive actions. Mobile gambling has shown itself to be a highly destructive action for its users, well in excess of any profits earned, sufficiently so as to substantially damage economic conditions. A that point, we need to draw the line.

The Standard Libertarian Counterargument

Maxwell Tabarrok makes the contrary case that sports gambling is ordinary consumption, and we should not assume that so-called ‘vulnerable populations’ need protections from deciding to increase their consumption. He says the evidence is not compelling here. His view is that this is no different from people buying Taylor Swift tickets. In general I am highly sympathetic to this argument. I am not looking to tell people how much to invest or what goods to consume. But here I must strongly disagree. I’ve certainly enjoyed consuming gambling, including in a few narrow small stakes cases where I wasn’t trying to be an advantage player. I think many others do so in ways that are not mistakes, or are mistakes we should allow them to make. But ‘this is normal consumption’ seems to me like an absurd interpretation of the evidence above, and fails to understand the nature of the consumption being offered. You can’t place this ability to wager directly onto everyone’s phones at all times, putting the temptation at arm’s reach, see these consequences, and pretend these consequences are merely revealed preferences.

What About Other Prediction Markets?

Most other prediction markets do not pose the same problems. They would not even if they greatly expanded and became more ‘normie’ friendly. In particular, sports markets are highly related to and integrated into the most ‘normie’ of activities and into the related media, and they pay off quickly, and they’re ubiquitous, with something for you every day.

What Should Be Done

The legalized mobile online sports betting experiment is a clear failure. It should end. You should need to go to a physical location to place fully legal bets of a non-trivial size, or at least interact with a human or bear some other cost or risk. I’m fine with that location being the local sports bar, especially if the bar gets to book your action. Yes, I realize that will mean more illegal and untaxed online sports betting, but it is what it is. The barriers to doing that would do a lot of good work. At a bare minimum, the advertising and dark pattern complexes feeding this must be disempowered. The Federal Government should do what it can. The states should realize they are not doing themselves any favors and resist or undo this cash grab. Legalized online casino gaming, allowing roulette or similar games from one’s phone, is of course far worse. That certainly should not be allowed via the internet. I am not keen to be expansive in what ‘counts as gambling’ but the obvious gambling that resolves in seconds and pays real money absolutely must go. We will need to figure out where to draw the line on ‘loot boxes’ and other game features, but if the more obnoxious and toxic versions of that got banned as well, that would be good too. Ben Krauss and Milan Singh reach the same conclusion at Slow Boring, although they are less willing to fully bite the bullet. Kelsey Piper, who similar to me is loathe to tell people what they cannot do, does bite the bullet. Here Saagar Enjeti bites the bullet. Here Charles Fain Lehman at The Atlantic bites the bullet. Otherwise, as the amount of gambling expands, it is only going to get worse.       

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I'll crosspost the comment I left on substack:
 

In Denmark the government has a service (ROFUS), which anyone can voluntarily sign up for to exclude themselves from all gambling providers operating in Denmark. You can exclude yourself for a limited duration or permanently. The decision cannot be revoked.

Before discussing whether gambling should be legal or illegal, I would encourage Americans to see how far they can get with similar initiatives first.

A similar service exists in the UK - https://www.gamstop.co.uk/

I don't know if "don't even discuss other methods until you've tried this first" seems right to me, but I do think such services seem pretty great, and would guess that expanding/building on them (including e.g. requiring that any gambling advertising included an ad for them) would be a lot more tractable than pursuing harder bans.

What actually works is clearly the most important thing here, but aesthetically I do like the mechanism of "give people the ability to irreversibly self exclude" as a response to predatory/addictive systems.

This exists in the US as well. Because legalized gambling is regulated by the state governments the self exclusion programs are also run by them. Here is one for the state of Massachusetts https://massgaming.com/about/voluntary-self-exclusion/

I've heard that, in Las Vegas, if you put yourself on the government's "compulsive gambler" list, you can still walk into any casino, give them your money, and place a bet - the only difference being that, if you happen to win, the casino keeps your money as if you had lost.

I think it should work the other way around, making it the casino's responsibility to avoid accepting bets from self-proclaimed problem gamblers - if you're on the list and the casino doesn't stop you from betting, the casino has to give you back any money you lose.

The failure mode of the current policy sounds to me like "pay for your own lesson to feel less motivated to do it again" while the failure mode of this proposal would be "one of the casinos might maybe help you cheat the system which will feel even more exciting" - almost as if the people who made the current policy knew what they were doing to set aligned incentives 🤔

Without looking it up, I'd bet there are plenty of people who get added to this list by mistake, and can't get themselves removed, like the people who got put on the US's no-fly list, or get declared dead.

It seems you need MitID (Denmarks national login system) to sign up online, so this seems very unlikely. If it happens, you have a far bigger problem. 

Also, a system with a few false positives still sounds far better than the current situation. 

A perhaps more interesting interaction is with wills that are managed by trusts. My understanding is that you can put conditions on how the money in a trust will be disbursed to your heirs, for example "as long as they maintain a minimum GPA in college". I have heard lawyers make outrageous jokes like adding a clause that says "as long as they don't marry that person".

It's quite reasonable to expect that some will add a clause to their trust that says "this only pays out if they have placed themselves on the lifetime no-gambling list".

[-]Milan W4768

I suspect that most people whose priors have not been shaped by a libertarian outlook are not very surprised by the outcome of this experiment.

Plenty of libertarians understand that some percentage of the population will degenerate when given limitless opportunities to do so. Though they usually don’t have an answer for what to do with the resulting millions of semi-deranged adults other than isolation/prison/etc...

It’s more the speed and extent that it has occurred within a short time is probably what’s surprising.

Most people don't have very fixed ideas about how much a 28% overall increase in bankruptcy happens to be. 

If you would ask most people without a libertarian outlook to rank different factors that lead to an increase in bankruptcy, I would not expect them to be able to accurately compare them and find that sports online gambling only will have such a strong influence. 

Sure, but people in general are really bad at that kind of precise quantitative world-knowledge. They have pretty weak priors and a mostly-anecdotes-and-gut-feeling-informed negative opinion of gambling, such that when presented with the 28% percent increase in bankruptcy study they go "ok sure that's compatible with my worldview" instead of being surprised and taking the evidence as a big update.

Yes, most people are generally bad at updating. That has nothing to do with whether or not someone is a libertarian. 

The reason Zvi is surprised comes downstream of numerical literacy and not downstream of him being libertarian-leaning. 

28% percent increase suggests that more than one in five go bankrupt because of sports online gambling (which would be a subset of gambling in general).

If I ask Claude for the top five reasons people go bankrupt in the US in 2023 I get:

1. Medical Debt

2. Job Loss/Income Reduction

3. Credit Card/Consumer Debt

4. Divorce/Family Issues

5. Housing Market Issues/Mortgage Debt

ChatGPT gives me:

Loss of Income

Medical Expenses

Unaffordable Mortgages or Foreclosures

Overspending and Credit Card Debt

Providing Financial Assistance to Others

I think Claude and ChatGPT do summarize the common wisdom about what normal people believe about what the most important factors for bankruptcy happen to be and that does not include gambling (let alone sports online gambling specifically). If you ask a normal person for the top five reasons they would likely come up with a similar list that does not mention sports online betting. 

Yes, I think an unusually numerate and well-informed person will be surprised by the 28% figure regardless of political orientation. How surprised that kind of person is by the broader result of "hey looks like legalizing mobile sports betting was a bad idea" I expect to be somewhat moderated by political priors though.

Of course some of those can be influenced by gambling, eg it is a type of overspending. Even so, Claude estimated that legalized online gambling would raise the bankruptcy rate by 2-3% and agreed that 28% is surprising.

A side question: Why do you believe Claude/ChatGPT (not sure which model versions you used) can summarise this ‘common wisdom’? I’ve seen LLMs used in similar ways by other users and I don’t understand why or when it became commonly agreed LLMs could do this with any believability.

It's a combination of the way LLM work that they predict the most likely token that very similar to prediction common wisdom and experience of interacting with LLMs.

Pattern matching also matters. After reading the answers from Claude and ChatGPT, you can ask yourself what you expect a person to tell you when you ask them for the top five reason and how likely it is that they will tell you "sports online betting" as one of the top five reasons. 

Sure, but they should instead be surprised by large-scale failures of non-libertarian policy elsewhere, the archetypal case being NIMBY policies which restrict housing supply and thus push up housing prices. Or perhaps an even clearer case is rent control policies pushing up prices.

Yes. Many non-libertarian people selectively refuse to see the evidence that supply and price controls are generally a bad idea.

[-]kqr191

In A World of Chance, Brenner, Brenner, and Brown look at this same question from a historic perspective, and (IIRC) conclude that gambling is about as damaging as alcohol, both for individuals and society. In other words, it should be legal (it gives the majority a relatively safe good time) but somewhat controlled (some cannot handle it and then it is very bad).

Do these more recent numbers corroborate that comparison to alcohol?

No, the effect size on bankruptcies is about 10x larger than expected. So while offline gambling may be comparable to alcohol, smartphone gambling is in a different category if we trust this research.

[-]aphyer153

Here’s a third paper, showing that sports betting increases domestic violence. When the home team suffers an upset loss while sports betting is legal, domestic violence that day goes up by 9% for the day, with lingering effects. It is estimated 10 million Americans are victims of domestic violence each year. 

I was suspicious of the methodology here (e.g. the difference between 'when the home team loses violence goes up by 9% if and only if gambling is legalized' and 'when the home team loses violence goes up by 10% if gambling is not legalized but by 10.9% if it is legalized' is something that I don't trust sociology to track honestly).

I went to take a look at the paper, and do not think it really supports the argument at all.

The relevant charts I believe are on p26 here.  The first one shows how intimate partner violence (IPV) varies with 'expected outcome of game' and 'actual outcome of game':

Note that 'expected outcome of game' is the thing that actually seems predictive, not 'actual outcome of game'.  When the home team is expected to lose, domestic violence is high even if they win.  When the home team is expected to win, domestic violence is low even if they lose (though even lower if they win).

This looks to me like a study that's been massively confounded by other effects.  Perhaps good sports teams tend to be favored to win, and also to be in wealthy regions with little domestic violence?  Regardless of the reason, though, this makes me very suspicious of anything this study claims to show.

The second chart shows how IPV varies with the outcome of the game based on whether sports betting is legal:

This does, indeed, show that areas with legalized sports betting had higher rates of domestic violence when the home team lost (~0.45 vs ~0.43).  However, it also showed that they had lower rates of domestic violence when the home team won, by more. (~0.38 vs ~0.42).  If we assume that half of games are wins and half are losses (seems...pretty reasonable?), I believe this chart depicts legalized sports betting lowering domestic violence (though again I don't know if I believe that either due to how obviously confounded this data is).

Somehow we seem to have gone from "a clearly confounded paper that (if you believe it) shows sports betting on average lowering domestic violence" to "there is strong evidence of sports betting increasing domestic violence".

I find this somewhat depressing.

I agree. It also would be very odd if there was a high increase overall that that the paper would not directly state that as their main finding. Instead, the paper's main claim is that sports betting "amplifies" emotions and impacts on domestic violence.

As you point out, if there's an unexpected loss, the domestic violence rate increases more in places with gambling, but, on the other hand, if there's an expected win, the domestic violence rate decreases more in places with gambling.

I mean, it's depressing in a variety of ways. The argument, "allowing people to trick money away from a certain class of person is bad because that class of person is likely to abuse their family when upset" is not very motivating for me, personally.

My distaste for exploitative betting companies comes from a place of compassion for those extorted. The domestic abuse fact lowers my compassion for the abusers. It then seems like I'm being threatened into protecting the abusers.

Imagine them saying, "you'd better protect us from foolishly wasting our money, or else we'll get mad and abuse our families!" Uh, this makes me inclined to search for solutions that have nothing to do with gambling and more to do with detecting and preventing domestic abuse.

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[-]Jiro149

This is the core reason why it is so difficult for ordinary people to pay their bills or raise families, despite earnings that would make them rich elsewhere or elsewhen. These productive actions are severely restricted, because if you are going to be productive then you have to do so ‘correctly’ and obey all sorts of rules and requirements.

There are plenty of good things that aren't restricted and bad things that are. But elites are human and aren't going to get it right every time, and you'll notice most the cases where they got it wrong.

I don't think elite behavior is at all well-characterized by assuming they're trying to strike a sensible tradeoff here. For example, there are occasionally attempts to cut outdated regulations, and these never find any traction (e.g. the total number of pages of legislation only grows, but never shrinks). Which isn't particularly surprising insofar as the power of legislatives is to pass new legislation, so removing old legislation doesn't seem appealing at all.

I agree with the spirit of your comment, but there are a couple of technical problems with it. For one thing, the total number of pages does sometimes decrease. (See the last plot in this document.) Total pages isn't a perfect measure of regulatory burden, but many other measures have the problem of counting repeals as new regulations. (See the same source for a discussion about what counts as a "rule".) Also, most regulations are drafted by executive agencies, not legislatures--especially at the federal level.

[This comment is no longer endorsed by its author]Reply

I appreciate the link and the caveats!

Re: "the total number of pages does sometimes decrease", it's not clear to me that that's the case. These plots show "number of pages published annually", after all. And even if that number is an imperfect proxy for the regulatory burden of that year, what we actually care about is in any case not the regulatory burden of a year, but the cumulative regulatory burden. That cannot possibly have stayed flat for 2000~2012, right? So that can't be what the final plot in the pdf is saying.

I took another look at my source, and I think you're right. The subject of the plot, the Federal Register (FR), lists changes to the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR). It also suffers from the other problem that I identified (repeals counting as new rules).

For anyone who's curious, here's a nice overview of measures of regulatory burden.

[-]Thelo1011

The percentage of people who bet on sports is rising rapidly, but even so only 34% said they placed even one bet in 2023, and many of those will be limited to nominal wagers on things like the Super Bowl and March Madness. This survey has 39% sports betting participation, with about 35% of betters betting at least once a week.

 

Holy cow! These numbers are absolutely, brutally shocking to me. I honestly expected sports betting to be a small fraction of a percent of the general population, not t h i r t y - n i n e percent!! I don't think I've ever seen anyone I know IRL (Canada) even talk about sports betting, so this wasn't on my radar at all. I was thinking of sports betting as some niche hobby by a few dedicated superfans, and definitely not something that over a third of the general population did last year.

Those raw numbers truly are a punch in the gut of my pre-existing worldview, hot damn. My initial reflex is that these numbers can't possibly be real, nor the various charts talking about billions in "handles" and double-digit percent bankruptcies. But uh, I guess I'll take your word for it. Holy shit, I'm reeling.

I feel like we're the blind men with the elephant more often than we'd like to admit. A lot of the time when two people make conflicting claims about society, really they're both right about their substrate of society and the world is just twice as big as either thought.

Another shocker for most people: 20 million people in the US live in trailer parks. People with similar life circumstances tend to accumulate in similar places, only see those places, and thus vastly underestimate the diversity of life experience. (This is also true of everything in https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/KpMNqA5BiCRozCwM3/social-dark-matter)

I mostly agree, but it's a double-digit percent increase in bankruptcies which ends up being (from the post)

about 4bps (0.04%)/year of additional bankruptcies

So, should the restrictions on gambling be based on feedback loop length? Should sport betting be broadly legal when about the far enough future?

It's a good question. I'd also say limiting mid-game advertising might be a good idea. I'm not really a sports fan in general and don't gamble, but a few months ago I went to a baseball game, and people advertising - I think it was Draftkings? - were walking up and down the aisles constantly throughout the game. It was annoying, distracting, and disconcerting.

A parable to elucidate my disagreement with parts of Zvi's conclusion:

Jenny is a teenager in a boarding school. She starts cutting herself using razors. The school principal bans razors. Now all the other kids can't shave and have to grow beards (if male) and have hairy armpits. Jenny switches to self-harming with scissors. The school principal bans scissors. Now every time the students receive a package they have to tear it open with their bare hands, and anyone physically weak or disabled has to go begging for someone to help them. Jenny smashes a mirror into glass shards, and self-harms with those. The principal bans mirrors...

Any sane adult here would be screaming at the principal. "No! Stop banning stuff! Get Jenny some psychological treatment!" 

Yes, I know the parable is not an exact match to sports betting, but it feels like a similar dynamic. There are some people with addictive personality disorder and they will harm themselves by using a product that the majority of the population can enjoy responsibly[1]. (Per a comment above, 39% of the US population bet online, of whom only a tiny fraction will have a gambling problem.) The product might be gambling, alcohol, online porn, cannabis, or something else. New such products may be invented in future. But, crucially, if one product is not available, then these people will very likely form an addiction to something else[2]. That is what 'addictive personality disorder' means.

Sometimes the authorities want to ban the product in order to protect addicts. But no one ever asks the question: how can we stop them from wanting to self-harm in the first place? Because just banning the current popular method of self-harming is not a solution if people will go on to addict themselves to something else instead[3]. I feel that the discourse has quietly assumed a fabricated option: if these people can't gamble then they will be happy unharmed non-addicts. 

I am a libertarian, and I have great sympathy for Maxwell Tabarrok's arguments. But in this case, I think the whole debate is missing a very important question. We should stop worrying about whether [specific product] is net harmful and start asking how we can fix the root cause of the problem by getting effective treatment to people with addictive personality disorder. And yes, inventing effective treatment and rolling it out on a population scale is a much harder problem than just banning [target of latest moral panic]. But it's the problem that society needs to solve. 

 

  1. ^

    In my parable the principal bans 'useful' things, while authorities responding to addictive behaviour usually want to ban entertainment. That isn't a crux for me. Entertainment is intrinsically valuable, and banning it costs utility - potentially large amounts of utility when multiplied across an entire population. 

  2. ^

    Or more than one something else. People can be addicted to multiple things, I'm just eliding that for readability.

  3. ^

    Zvi quotes research saying that legalizing sports betting resulted in a 28% increase in bankruptcies, which suggests it might be more financially harmful than whatever other addictions people had before, but that's about as much as we can say.

[-]espoire1711

I can see some sense in this take; I've personally succumbed to predatory gambling services in years past, and can attest from personal experience that successfully quitting one addiction leaves me exceedingly vulnerable to pick up a different one. I rotated through six different highly-damaging vices, before settling into a relatively less-harmful vice, and I was grateful to find myself there.

And that's my point: you are in expectation doing someone who is inclined to addiction a favor by forcing them off of a particularly bad addiction.

You would be doing them a slightly bigger favor if you provide a much less-harmful replacement addiction at the same time. For me, the holy grail was to find a net-positive activity to slot into the addiction-shaped hole in my brain, and after a lifetime of struggle, I finally got "reading pop nonfiction books" to replace "scrolling social media", the first real Good in a long line of Lesser Evils.

Thanks for the comment, and I agree that it would be helpful if the debate on this topic could focus on the question of 'how do we encourage people to take up a less harmful addiction' -- like vaping vs smoking -- rather than typically jumping to the question of ban / don't ban.

[-]alexey1512

But, crucially, if one product is not available, then these people will very likely form an addiction to something else. That is what 'addictive personality disorder' means.

Except whatever they got addicted to before the legalization of online sports betting, it apparently led to much lower bankruptcy rates etc. 

I feel that the discourse has quietly assumed a fabricated option: if these people can't gamble then they will be happy unharmed non-addicts.

This post isn't quietly assuming something: it's loudly giving evidence that they will be much less harmed.

"Except whatever they got addicted to before the legalization of online sports betting, it apparently led to much lower bankruptcy rates etc." 

Yes, Zvi gives evidence on bankruptcy rates. However, that is not the only kind of harm. Sports gambling doesn't have direct health effects the way that drug or alcohol addictions do. Different types of addictions hit relationships, and sports gambling isn't good for relationships, but it's plausibly less harmful than a porn addiction. Sports gambling leaves people functional and able to hold down a job, again in a way that not all other addictions do. I don't think you can assert that banning sports gambling will make people 'much less harmed'. Not unless you've done a deep dive into all the different forms of harm caused by different types of addiction which they might get instead. If someone like Scott Alexander did that kind of analysis and announced that banning sports gambling is still worthwhile because people will addict themselves to cannabis or porn and that is net better, that would be different, but so far as I know, no one has tried to answer the question. 

Separate point: you also can't make the jump from 'sports gambling is harmful' to 'we should ban sports gambling'. Banning things also causes harm. It moderately reduces takeup, but doesn't eliminate the thing banned -- illegal gambling is a problem everywhere people ban it, Prohibition didn't eliminate alcohol, and the War on Drugs didn't magically stop people taking them. So banning things causes a moderate reduction in usage of the thing, with an empirical question mark over how much. Banning things also means criminalising people who would otherwise not be criminalised, ruining their lives. It means devoting more societal resources to police and prisons, to enforce the ban, or else it means diverting existing law enforcement resources away from dealing with other crimes. Even if you accept both that sports gambling is harmful to users (more harmful than whatever other thing they'd get addicted to instead) and that banning it would somewhat reduce usage of gambling, you still can't come to a firm conclusion that banning it is net beneficial to society.

On Zvi's levels of legality, I'm OK with the idea of making sports gambling a 2, ie legal with modest frictions, but I really don't believe that society can justify going to level 3 and criminalising it. And, again, the whole should-we-ban-it debate is a distraction that doesn't help with the broader question of how society can treat people with addictive personality disorder. 

[-]dr_s82

I think the fundamental problem is that yes, there are people with that innate tendency, but that is not in the slightest bit helped by creating huge incentives for a whole industry to put its massive resources into finding ways to make that tendency become as bad as possible. Imagine if we had entire companies that somehow profited from depressed people committing suicide and had dedicated teams of behavioural scientists and quants crunching data and designing new strategies to make anyone who already has the tendency maximally suicidal. I doubt we would consider that fine, right? Sports betting (really, most addiction-based industries) is like that. The problem isn't just providing the activity, as some kind of relief valve. The problem is putting behind the activity a board of investors that wants to maximise profits and turns it into a full blown Torment Nexus. Capitalism is a terrible way of providing a service when the service is "self-inflicted misery".

In terms of Zvi's 4 levels of legality, I think that your reasoning is a valid argument against crossing the line between 2 and 3. However, I don't think that it's a valid argument against what Zvi is actually proposing, which is going from 1 to 2. If we have an obligation to help people who have APD, then the most cost-effective/highest-utility solution might involve making gambling less convenient for the general population.

[-]JJXW80

Another working job market economics paper out of Stanford attempts to measure the degree to which sports bettors are overly optimistic. Results largely what you'd expect: people think they're break even when they're actually losing by ~7% and a subset of those people have self control problems.

Funnily enough the way I found out about this paper is from being recruited to participate in it through a targeted ad on social media when I took a trip out to Colorado to farm sports book new account sign up bonuses.

His view is that this is no different from people buying Taylor Swift tickets. In general I am highly sympathetic to this argument. I am not looking to tell people how much to invest or what goods to consume.

Hmm. Now you have me wondering if I should be biting that bullet in the other direction. I do think Live Nation's practices could qualify as predatory. I guess the difference is that Swift herself has asked fans not to buy at such high (and scalped) prices.

There are several relevant differences. It's very difficult to spend very large amounts on Taylor Swift tickets while concealing it from your family and friends. There is no promise of potentially winning money by buying Taylor Swift tickets. Spending more money on Taylor Swift tickets gets you more or better entertainment. There is a lower rate of regret by people who spend money on Taylor Swift tickets. Taylor Swift doesn't make most of her money from a small minority of super whales.

Thanks for laying out the parts I wasn't thinking about!

Thinking about responsible gambling, something like up-front long-term commitment should solve a lot of problems? You have to decide right away and lock up money you going to spend this month and that will separate decision from impulse to spend.

ow my balls [image] [image]

I can tell that this is a game being shown on ESPN between the New York Mets and the Milwaukee Brewers. I also think that the earlier estimation of winning is 50/50 in the first picture and 61/39 (favoring Milwaukee) in the second picture even though all the numbers around MIL are lower than the numbers around NYM.

I have no idea what to make of the “Live Money Line” part in the first picture.

For those of us who are interested in betting in the abstract but know nearly nothing about sports betting, would you explain what the picture is showing?

Seconded. Also, in the second picture, that line is missing, so it seems that it is just Zvi complaining about the "win probability"?

My guess is that the numbers (sans the weird negative sign) might indicate the returns in percent for betting on either team. Then, if the odds were really 50:50 and the bookmaker was not taking a cut, they should be 200 each? So 160 would be fair if the first team had a win probability of 0.625, while 125 would be fair if the other team had a win probability of 0.8. Of course, these add up to more than one, which is to be expected, the bookmaker wants to make money. If they were adding up to 1.1, that would (from my gut feeling) be a ten percent cut for the bookie. Here, it looks like the bookie is taking almost a third of the money? Why would anyone play at those odds? I find it hard to imagine that anyone can outperform the wisdom of the crowds by a third. The only reason to bet here would be if you knew the outcome beforehand because you had rigged the game.

This is all hypothetical, for all I know the odds in sports betting are stated customarily as the returns on a 70$ bet or whatever.

Edit: seems I was not very correct in my guess.

Those odds are in the confusing "American format", in which a positive number is "how much would you win (in addition to your bet amount) on a $100 bet", and the negative number is -- careful here! -- how much would you have to bet in order to win $100, again in addition to getting your bet back.  There are calculators to get the equivalence, since -- especially for the negative odds -- it's not real intuitive.  So a 50/50 event should be +100 each way, and of course it never is.  In this case, -160 would be fair odds for a 60% chance event, and +125 would be fair for a 44.4% chance event, giving a "hold" of 4.4% (60+44.4 - 100), which honestly isn't terrible as such things go. 

I think the %win thing on that screen might be from a different source than the betting odds altogether in this case; the classic 50/50 bet is generally priced at -110/-110, which works out to a 4.8% hold.  

You'll note that because of the way the +/- odds work, it's really hard to instantly grasp how good/bad most odds are.  (It's not "halfway between the two", for one thing.)  In Europe/Asia the common format is a decimal number telling you how much you multiply your stake by, including getting the stake back, so those would be [checks online calculator] 1.63 and 2.25.  The single advantage of the American system is that you can see what a fair bet should be, because one is just the negation of the other. (For two-way results.)  In this case it would be +-138.5.

Curated. I found it quite interesting to learn about the effects of this industry, gave me a much better sense of what was going on. I also really liked the mini post about trivial inconveniences, I hope that general post comes out sometime.

This post isn't without value, but I am put-off by its use of A) working papers instead of published research, and B) the use of an LLM for doing research.

Good write up! People Cannot Handle "fill in the blank" on smartphones. Sex, food, drugs, social status, betting, binge watching, shopping etc. in abundance and a click away is something we cannot not handle. If some of biggest corporations in the world spends billions upon billions each year to grab our attention, they will win and "you" will on average loose, unless you pull the cord (or turn off the wifi...) or have extreme will power. 

I am definitely not the one to throw the first rock, but is it not pretty embarrassing that most of us who thought we were so smart and independent are mere serfs, both intellectually and physically, to a little piece of electronics that have completely and utterly hijacked our brains and bodies.

I don't know a lot about sports. Can someone explain why the images of the NYM and MIL teams seem absurd?

I posted this as a reply [and then posted it in the wrong subthread...reposting final version here] but I thought about it more, and on the Mets/Brewers odds thing, the "win %" from ESPN is something they've been doing for years.  It's all over espn.com.  It's not very smart, and doesn't have to be, because nothing is riding on it.

ESPNbet.com is licensed to use the ESPN name but is otherwise separate.  Since their posted odds are their business, I expect them to be a lot more...meticulous, at least.  The -160/+125 odds posted imply (after removing the house edge, aka de-vigging) a 58/42 probability split.  And that represents only a 4.4% hold from those probabilities, so it's not outrageous.  The standard -110/-110 on even money is a 4.8% hold.

Sports betting increases domestic violence. When the home team suffers an upset loss while sports betting is legal, domestic violence that day goes up by 9% for the day.

Stress researcher, Dr. Robert Sapolsky of Stanford University, in his book Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers: A Guide to Stress, Stress-Related Diseases, and Coping found that, unfortunately, one of the best ways to cope for stress is displacing aggression onto another person. (Though, he primarily studied the phenomenon with respect to baboons.)

I find this context helpful in trying to understand why some people might commit domestic violence---a perpetrator (who has not learned emotional regulation and developed healthy coping mechanisms) is experiencing incredibly high stress levels that need to be mediated through some form of coping.

It might be worth asking how often and in what disciplines the phrase 'I enjoy it but others...'tracks with a form of enlightened sociopathy where the predator is aware of their predatory behaviour.  

Trying to draw lines in the sand in this case will not work.  

Liberatians are simply people who have a bias against empathy (solution: read Dickens A Christmas Carol).   Either that, or they have not had any close encounters/connections to people who are endemically vulnerable (for instance  a family member with learning difficulties/mental health issues).  At least 1% of the population of post industrialised countries are not able to sustain themselves independently long term. Without support, most end up cycling between the streets, prison, mental health wards and prematurely at the morgue.  We have been failing people with mental health issues forever, but arguably closing the mental health institutions in the 1980s was crueler than it was kind.  A healthy society can be judged by the wellbeing of its most vulnerable, not its most wealthy. 

A possible solutions to the sports betting problem is to create a virtual world for problem gamblers. Once the system detects that you are an addict, it switches you into a fantasy world where everything is the same, except you are betting tokens, not real money.  You aren't aware of this, of course, and the betting companies don't profit, but on the other hand, currently they should be picking up the pieces to put these peoples lives back together, which would be far more expensive. So they can consider themselves lucky just to forgo profits here. 

Longer term, it would be desirable if we could find ways of giving vulnerable people systems of entertainment that give them dopamine hits for things that benefit their physical and mental wellbeing, rather than predate on them.  Given that the system that provides the entertainment is a fantasy/social contract anyway, this would not need to be deceptive.  

Since money is a promise anyway, Society could do well to explore other vice/addiction based incentive systems.  For instance lottery tickets issued for paying consumption or VAT taxes.  

 

Thanks for writing this. It changed my mind about sports betting. 

A tangential, very brainstormy, thought: it's really addiction that's the problem. I wonder if we could actually address this as a society more directly and make addiction illegal. Or else behaviors that encourage addiction illegal. 

For example, selling a gallon of vodka to someone would be fine, but selling a gallon of vodka to someone every day who is clearly deteriorating over time shouldn't be allowed. 

What I think will happen is things keep getting worse for at least a decade. At some point a critical mass of people will know at least one person whose life was ruined by gambling and then we get a (way over the top) backlash.

Gambling bans in general, strong regulation of even non-monetary video game gambling mechanics.

You see rumblings of this among gamers, who got exposed to gamba trash earlier than the general population.

Or we just embrace the darwinism aspect of it and it becomes one more cause of permanent cultural inequality.

People Cannot Handle Gambling on Smartphones

this seems a very strange way to say "Smartphone Gambling is Unhealthy"
It's like saying "People's Lungs Cannot Handle Cigarettes"